When Does The Reload Start & End?

[Neil Beverley]

As an extension to the thread which discusses when does the draw end (which can be found HERE I have an additional query.

When does the reload start and end? (With apologies to Vince who is probably crying in his beer)

[Skywalker]

Guess this shouldn't be so difficult.

Reload Starts: as soon as you push the mag release button.

Reload Ends: as soon as the mag is inserted (and locked) in place.

All that's happening out of these bounds is generic gun handling.

[Dead Buff]

Agree with Sky...unless I miss some point or miss some rule I don't know about (which happens all to often... ) I think this is very straight forward.

You are welcome to run the whole CoF with the spare mag in hand after the beeb if you want to and you don't need to insert the mag after dropping one untill you want to shoot again....why this Q Neil?

[38supPat]

It begins and so does any other action during a course of fire, when the pistol come down from "on aim" and is finished when it returns. If you read the rule book the moment the gun comes down from 'on aim' the finger must be clear of the trigger guard.

[Skywalker]

It begins and so does any other action during a course of fire, when the pistol come down from "on aim" and is finished when it returns. If you read the rule book the moment the gun comes down from 'on aim' the finger must be clear of the trigger guard.

Pat,

what you're referring to is generic gunhandling, which is a more comprehensive category than reload.

I could bring the gun down from eye level to check if it's slide-locked, then decide to reload, or I could insert the mag, run for some yds, then bring again gun at eye level as soon as I'm able to see a target.

The gun handling starts as soon as I'm no more engaging a target, then the reload kicks in when I hit the mag release, the reload is over as soon as the mag is locked in place (if I let my mag fall after putting it in, and have to pick it up or take a new one, that's still reload), then running to next shooting position is gunhandlling, not reload.

[Neil Beverley]

I honestly wasn't fishing for this but curiously Sky adopts a different concept for this to the concept for the draw which he wrote as:

I still think the draw movement ends with the presentation of the gun onto the target.

Actually I think my question is probably more relevant to shotgun.

Consider someone who drops the gun to waist level to reload. They make this movement before actually reloading a single round. Having loaded the last round they intended they then return to "presentation of the gun onto a target". If the only reason they have broken the gun away from target presentation when should the reload start and end?

I ask this because it came up in an arbitration 2 or 3 years back. A DQ was involved.

[Skywalker]

You see Neil, this was easier than the draw, since in this case we have two distinct, easily observable actions (facts) that define start and end of the action: mag release (sorry, I still think in terms of a handgun and I should consider shotguns too), and mag lock after insertion.

In the draw issue, the last action performed to actually end the draw is not clear and defined, thus I could only apply some sort of reasoning to determine what this action could be.

Regarding the definitions I gave for reload start and end, I guess that when applied to SGs, if the SG lacks a mag (but SPAS-15 have it), we could say picking a round or a speed-loader for start, round inserted/speedloader discarded for end. The rest is usual SG handling.

[Dead Buff]

Neil, I don't see that to make a diff. I can lower and raise the gun any amount of times during a CoF and do nothing else while adhereing to the other rules. It doesn't mean I reload.

With a SG the reload/load process starts and stops when you insert a cart into the mag and remove your hand to go for the next. Again I can hold a cart as I hold a mag and not reload.

[ipsc1]

Guess this shouldn't be so difficult.

Reload Starts: as soon as you push the mag release button.

Reload Ends: as soon as the mag is inserted (and locked) in place.

All that's happening out of these bounds is generic gun handling.

and if I release the mag, and then , realizing that I have a miss, re-engage before inserting another mag, you would DQ me under 10.5.9. ?

ipsc1

[Dead Buff]

I wouldn't - you just screwed your time for the targets after that and if there where none I wouldn't either makes the IYAF, USC a lot faster - you did aim to fill in the miss didn't you?

Jokes aside good Q - Vince????

[Skywalker]

ipsc1,

in that case you aborted the reload action: you aimed at a target and fired a shot, I don't see it in contrast with my definition of the reload.

I was giving my definition of start and end of the complete reload action, but it can end in several different ways.

If you're into programming, you can see it as a primary flow (when everything goes the right way), and several secondary flows, usually exceptions to the normal flow.

[DogmaDog]

I'm still curious to understand what the issue is.

I'm guessing the DQ was for having the finger on the trigger while reloading, and the shooter claimed he was engaging targets?

Please tell us more about what happened/could happen, that requires a definition.

DogmaDog

[Neil Beverley]

With a SG the reload/load process starts and stops when you insert a cart into the mag and remove your hand to go for the next. Again I can hold a cart as I hold a mag and not reload.

Dead Buff raises a further interesting concept. If a competitor is in the process of loading 6 cartridges are they performing 6 reloads or just 1? For shotgun perhaps the wording needs to be changed from "reloading" to "reloading process" or "reloading sequence" or ???

Say, for example, an "unplanned" shot is fired after the 3rd cartridge of what was intended to be a 6 round reload. The "free hand" wasn't in contact with the 4th cartridge. Does this constitute an AD during a reload? How do you know/prove that the 4th round was to be loaded?

The incident that comes to mind was roughly as follows:

The competitor was shooting the last target array of 4 metal targets. The gun only had 4 rounds left in it. The competitor missed on the 2nd shot but shot the 3rd and 4th plates OK. The gun was dropped to waist level which was the competitors normal reloading technique (let's ignore the tactical issues of the reload, this is what actually happened) a single round was reloaded and as the gun was rotated in readiness to mount the gun, and while still at waist level, the gun was fired, perfectly down range but certainly unexpectedly.

The competitor was DQed but appealed to an Arbitration Committee claiming the reload was finished. The RO argued it wasn't finished and that the competitor was still completing the reloading process, the gun was still at waist level.

Over to you for now. I'll tell you the result of the arbitration later.

[Skywalker]

Neil,

if the competitor was standing still, he didn't need to raise the SG at eye level to shoot the last plate, thus he could (legally) claim he was done with reloading and he was engaging the plate.

I know it sounds tricky, but I guess according to the existing rules he could do it, and the DQ should have been revoked.

If I remeber correctly, a similar issue has already been debated on these forums.

[Neil Beverley]

Neil,

if the competitor was standing still, he didn't need to raise the SG at eye level to shoot the last plate, thus he could (legally) claim he was done with reloading and he was engaging the plate.

I know it sounds tricky, but I guess according to the existing rules he could do it, and the DQ should have been revoked.

If I remeber correctly, a similar issue has already been debated on these forums.

Sky

While technically he didn't need to raise the gun it is an absolute certainty that he was going to had he not been stopped. No doubt whatsoever.

[Skywalker]

OK, but in saying so you're trialing his intentions, not the facts.

I guess I'd hate to do that, because I can be pretty sure if a competitor's shot has been intentional or not, but according to what the rules are, at the moment, I have to take a decision on facts, and according to what you posted, even if you have absolute certainty that the shot was unintentional, the fact is that he was legally entitled to do that.

I said according to the rules "at the moment", because it is my impression that this is a "grey" area where an unfair competitor might take advantage.

[Ron Ankeny]

The issue of when a reload starts and when it ends reminds me of an unpleasant experience last summer.

I was running the clipboard, another fellow was running the timer. Shooter is blasting away on "the Mini-Mart" classifier. Shooter draws the pistol from the "shelf" shoots the three targets, bang-bang, bang-bang, bang-bang, lowers the gun a bit from eye level and begins reaching toward the spare magazine, thumb hasn't hit the mag release and the gun goes "bang", followed by competitor saying "Oh sh..". The round goes between the targets and impacts on the berm.

Shooter performs the reload and finishes the course of fire. No DQ for an AD, no DQ for finger in the trigger guard during a reload. RO tells me the magazine was still seated so a reload was not in progress even though the shooter was obviously finished and was obviously doing a reload.

[Neil Beverley]

Sky

I know it's a grey area which is why I've raised it and indeed some of my rhetoric on the subject is deliberately from a role as devil's advocate.

I agree we musn't penalise someone based on assumptions of what the competitor did or didn't intend to do. And I agree we need to consider possible explortation by an unscrupulous competitor.

[Skywalker]

The example Ron posted is exactly what I'd do (and what I'd hate).

The competitor obviously screwed it up. Had an unintentional shot fired. Then, according to the rules, since he was standing still, and had not even released the mag, he was technically entitled to engage the targets, even with gun lowered from eye level.

I say I'd hate that, because It's pretty obvious the shot was unintentional, and the competitor should have been DQed for that, but according to the rules I can find no ground for this DQ...

Neil,

nevermind, I know you're doing all this with best intentions, and you playin' the devil's advocate is giving the devil one of the best attorneys "on plaza".

[Nik Habicht]

The issue of when a reload starts and when it ends reminds me of an unpleasant experience last summer.

I was running the clipboard, another fellow was running the timer. Shooter is blasting away on "the Mini-Mart" classifier. Shooter draws the pistol from the "shelf" shoots the three targets, bang-bang, bang-bang, bang-bang, lowers the gun a bit from eye level and begins reaching toward the spare magazine, thumb hasn't hit the mag release and the gun goes "bang", followed by competitor saying "Oh sh..". The round goes between the targets and impacts on the berm.

Shooter performs the reload and finishes the course of fire. No DQ for an AD, no DQ for finger in the trigger guard during a reload. RO tells me the magazine was still seated so a reload was not in progress even though the shooter was obviously finished and was obviously doing a reload.

Ron,

I would have issued a DQ for discharge during the reload. The gun dropping and hand reaching for the mag wouldn't have been enough --- but the "Oh, sh.." reference would have pushed it over the top.

Sky,

maybe the shooter would have won at arbitration --- though not if most R.O.s of my acquaintance were to sit on the panel --- but it would have provided for a cooling off/refocusing opportunity for the competitor at minimum.....

[Skywalker]

Nik, I'm not advocating the RO has no right to issue a DQ in that case.

He can do that according to his perception.

But what's gonna happen next is that the Arb. committee will reinstate the same competitor because he didn't even touch the fresh mag nor the release button (thus no reload action ever started), he was standing still, he fired a shot towards the targets, and there is no rule that warrants a DQ for shooting a round in safe direction with gun in a different position than eye level if standing still.

As I already pointed out, this is a grey area that might need to get addressed as well.

[Vince Pinto]

When does the reload start and end?  (With apologies to Vince who is probably crying in his beer)

I'm not ignoring you guys - it's just that I'm in the Philippines and I don't have a lot of free time right now to contribute much to the BE Forums. Anyway, this is Neil's baby, so you guys beat him up for change.

However I'm standing by, with my first aid kit (a bottle of dark rum!) at the ready

[Eye Cutter]

I agree with sky that the reload starts when the mag release button is activated and when the magazine is seated.

I believe it is still the RO's prerogative if he perceives it to be unsafe gun handling, his call of a DQ is justified.

Neil, so how did the arbitration end?

[Eye Cutter]

Boss Vince,

So what are you and Myro up to now??? We should set up a get together with the BE Forum regulars from Manila one time when you're around town again!

:-)

[Neil Beverley]

Neil, so how did the arbitration end?

The appeal was denied and the DQ upheld.

Under the rules in force at the time of the incident the only rule that could be applied to the situation was:

Unsafe Gun Handling - Any discharge prior to commencement or while loading, reloading or during remedial action in the case of a malfunction.

The Committee determined that there was no definition of reloading. They did not consider it their remit to make such a definition. They decided that they should only consider whether the actions of the competitor on that day, at that time, was to be treated as "reloading".

They decided that there were some unique characteristics to be considered. This wasn't a planned reload but an unexpected reload. Additionally this additional, unplanned reload occurred on the last target array of the stage. If the target hadn't have been missed there would have been no reload and significantly the gun would have stayed in the shoulder until the end of the stage.

From the description of the competitor's actions as given by the RO the Committee was satisfied that the competitor was in the process of returning the gun to the shoulder to shoot the last target. THe gun had just been rolled over following the insertion of the round and occurred as the competitor adjusted the position of his hands.

The logic that the Committee applied to reach their decision was based on the particular sequence of events. The competitor only broke the gun away from the shoulder to reload otherwise the targets would have all been shot in one smooth (shouldered) sequence. Therefore on this occasion they decided that the reload (the reload process) consisted of breaking stance, adding a round and returning back to the shooting stance. The whole of this process was considered to constitute a reload and therefore the DQ was upheld in accordance with the rule.

Now there may be some of you that don't agree with the decision. And there will be some of you that do. The fact remains that the Arbitration Committee made a decision and that decision was final. Another day, a different committee, different circumstances and there could be a different decision. I'm still considering whether the Rules Committee has to address the issue or not.

On a closing note: The competitor afterwards agreed that he had messed up but had been looking for a way out of the DQ. He thought it was a good call by the RO and hadn't really expected to win the arbitation but thought he had an outside chance by exploiting the issue of when the reload was actually at its end.

Everyone shook hands and walked away at the end of the day with no hard feelings. There were no murmurs from anyone that the decision had been harsh. Instead the weight of opinion was that proper justice had prevailed.