When Does The Reload Start & End?

[Nik Habicht]

Nik, I'm not advocating the RO has no right to issue a DQ in that case.

He can do that according to his perception.

But what's gonna happen next is that the Arb. committee will reinstate the same competitor because he didn't even touch the fresh mag nor the release button (thus no reload action ever started), he was standing still, he fired a shot towards the targets, and there is no rule that warrants a DQ for shooting a round in safe direction with gun in a different position than eye level if standing still.

As I already pointed out, this is a grey area that might need to get addressed as well.

I don't think an Arb committee will be overturning that decision, if the facts are laid out for them. This is not a competitor gets the benefit of the doubt situation; even though it's not defined in the rulebook, we KNOW and the competitor KNOWS that he was starting the reload and fired an unintentional shot. Not everything needs to or CAN be spelled out in the rulebook --- sometimes we have to rely on ROs, CROs, RMs, and ARB Committees to exercise their common sense and realize that if it looks like a horse, runs like a horse, smells like a horse, it most likely is a horse and not a zebra.....

[Skywalker]

Neil, Nik,

I seem to be missing something here.

I can see that, since a SG reloading procedure is somewhat different from that of a handgun (at least, Open division aside, you have to reload one round per time), in Neil's example maybe I can agree with the Arb. Com. final decision, even though I still don't see a rule that prohibits you from firing a round from a still position with the gun not at eye level (shouldered in this case).

The Arb. Com., even if they admittedly didn't want to cast a definition for reloading, in the end defined the reloading boundaries and deemed the competitor as acting inside these boundaries when he fired, hence the DQ according to rule 10.4.3.

But now let's get to Ron's example.

Would you please set me straight on which rule to invoke for a DQ in this case?

Nik, you said if it looks like a horse, runs like a horse, smells like a horse, it most likely is a horse and not a zebra, but in this case you're giving a meaning to the competitor's actions; but then there is the fact that the reload wasn't evidently started (I mean, all those actions and words could possibly have had a different explanation), and without a mag in his hands, or a dropped mag on his feet, it's hard to demonstrate he was reloading.

Ron's example lacks the evidence for which to invoke rule 10.4.3, and I cannot accept to judge someone on my perception of his intentions rather than on evidence.

[Nik Habicht]

Luca,

maybe it's semantics. Evertime I RO and shooters need to reload it looks something like this: Weakhand drops from gun toward mag pouch, strong hand either brings gun toward face or drops it a bit from the usual sights lined up in front of eyes position, usually while also pressing the mag release. Now if that's all I see, and there's a shot, I don't think I have grounds for a DQ unless one of several other things are also going on, for example shot over berm, or in ground within three meters, or if the competitor's moving. But if I see what looks like the beginning of a reload coupled with a shot, and a reaction of surprise/shock/fear from the competitor ---- then I'm gonna call it a DQ for a shot fired during the reload. In other words, I'm looking at all the evidence, not just parts of it. That's pretty much what happened in Neil's case --- the arb committee decided that the DQ should stand because of the totality of the circuumstances surrounding the shot in question.

BTW, did I mention that I really hate competitors who know they should be DQ'd and try to weasel their way out of it? If you know you broke the rule, accept the consequences. If you honestly believe that you didn't or that your actions were not unsafe, etc. arb away.

On another note --- I don't think we want to define when the reload starts/stops because I don't think we'll ever be able to conceive of every possible way that someone can be unsafe while reloading. Some things are going to have be left to the R.O.'s discretion ---- and we have checks and balances to keep R.O.s in check/deal with human error.

[omnia1911]

Reload starts when the mag button is pressed?

What if a shooter, by means of a poor grip, accidentally pressed the mag release button, dropped the mag, fired the the round in the chamber (hit a target), then inserted a new mag to finish the COF. DQ for a discharge during a reload?

Above example isn't a complete reload action?

If you believe this, then an incomplete reload action must have more than one starting and ending point. What are they in the example above?

[omnia1911]

10.4.3 (new rule book) A shot which occurs while preparing to or while actually loading, reloading or unloading a handgun. This includes any shot fired during the procedures outlined in Rule 8.3.7.

The rule contains wording (while preparing to) that is rather ambiguous and makes the establishment of a clear starting point for any of the actions that are described in the rule irrelevent, because it opens the door to the possibility that a DQ could be issued prior to the mag release button being pressed.

I believe that the new rule would have established the grounds for issuing a DQ for the manner in which the competitor shot the classifier stage, Mini Mart, that is described in this thread; maybe even the shotgun example.

The important question is whether a shooter is truly engaging targets. That can be very subjective at times. That is why we pay the ROs the big bucks. The rule book does give some definable guidelines within 10.4.

10.4.5 A shot which occurs while transferring a handgun between hands.

Are we going to have to define the starting and ending point of a transfer next?

[Vince Pinto]

Hi guys,

Forgive me for this hit 'n' run post, but it seems that the following definition in Rule 12.5 has been overlooked:

"Reloading - Replenishment or the insertion of additional ammunition into a firearm"

-:which I casually toss into this thread with reckless abandon.

[Skywalker]

So, am I safe to suppose that the reload begins with the act of picking a fresh mag, and ends as soon as a mag is seated?

[Dead Buff]

From the reckless post by Vince ( ) I gather that reloading a SG is up to 6 separate reloading events, because you can shoot in between reloads at any time if you wish...just for me the reload starts the moment the shooter inserts the cart into the mag and stops the moment that it is in (wanna shoot a SG one-handed???)

With a pistol I say the reload starts the moment the new mag enters the gun and stops when it is seated (Me big strong man shoot pistol one hand!!!)

Had a competitor this weekend at our nats. Completed a CoF, dropped the mag to USC, saw a popper standing and dropped it (two handed the wuss... ) with the chambered round...DQ? Why? he wasn't reloading - no new mag, and we wasn't unloading - no attempt to rack the slide...

I agree with the arb com results w.r.t. the SG DQ above, but if the guy would have hit that plate...I would not have issued the DQ (Aimed??? shot from the hip....)

The HG above... I would have prob DQ'ed because it was an AD as described above...it was not an intentional shot....

[Neil Beverley]

I'd forgotten to look at the definition. Damm!

If I now put my best Devil's Advocate hat on ...................... (and Vince is reaaaalllly going to hate me now) .................

"Replenishment or the insertion of" isn't an either/or choice. In fact it could be argued that "insertion" conditions "replenishment". In which case it could be argued, by reference to the glossary term, that the reloading is limited to the act of insertion. And that certainly is not what is intended. I hope some common senses would prevail as well but ....... who knows?

The situation is worse for SG and I'm certainly going to have to look at changing the glossary term. For SG a competitor will often load more than one round at a time, e.g. 6 rounds, therefore 6 insertions. Actually for SG the word "insertion" gets in the way of "replenishment". For SG I think the solution will be to delete "or the insertion".

But then that will bring me back to: "When does the act of replenishment start and end?

There's a hole in my bucket (etc) .............................. (for those of you old enough and sad enough to remember the song.

[Dead Buff]

There's a hole in my bucket (etc) .............................. (for those of you old enough and sad enough to remember the song.

And I'm supposed to work HOW??? now that have that stuck in my head????

[omnia1911]

Hi guys,

Forgive me for this hit 'n' run post, but it seems that the following definition in Rule 12.5 has been overlooked:

"Reloading - Replenishment or the insertion of additional ammunition into a firearm"

-:which I casually toss into this thread with reckless abandon.

If someone had a brain fart an forgot to load ammo in one of his mags, put it on his belt, use it during an attempted reload, and had the round in the chamber discharge into the berm when the mag was seated, would he really be making a reload? Would he get a DQ?

The definition in the rule book states that a reload is the insertion of additional ammunition into the firearm. The mag he used had no ammunition in it.

[Ron Ankeny]

Cool, so I can keep my finger in the trigger guard and even torch a round off down range right up until I insert a magazine. I wonder does "insertion" mean when the mag lips apss the well or when the magazine is seated?

[MasterLefty]

In regards to handguns, I would agree with Sky that the reload is completed when the magazine is seated (latched).

Senario: A competitor performs a reload and breaks a shot, almost instantly. Is it an early shot (within the confines of the berm and beyond 3 meters) or is it a D.Q. for finger in the trigger guard while performing remedial action, i.e. reloading?

My position has alway been:

If the pistol chambers a new round then the reload was complete. If the chamber is empty because the magazine was not fully inserted, then the reload was not complete. (Assuming that the new magazine had ammunition.)

---

Any discussion as to whether it was an early shot or a D.Q. offense is outside the bounds of the question posed.

Kenny