A/P Committee News

[Dirty Steve]

I think they should do a way with production gun at the National level. Also I don't think a mover mount on a metalic sight gun is in the spirit of the guns intended use/catagory.

They should have all stages shot the same for metaillic and open guns. If for no other reason than simplification of the rules. The only diffrences will be what makes an Open gun, Open and Metallic gun, Metallic cass. Guess I should have just said the equipment rules for each gun will be the only things that need to be differentiated in the rules.

As far as squading goes the only gripe I have is all the guns one the line should be in the same class. When you shoot metallic and every one else on the line is open. You have a tendency to pick up the pace and shoot the open pace and not your own. This leads to misses that would not have normally occured.

Shooting both guns I don't think it really matters how much practice time you get in while at the Cup. If you are trying to improve while your there it is way too late.

Dirty Steve, Out.

[Kimberkid]

Dirty Steve, I agree almost wholeheartedly with what you said, the only thing I take exception to is the squadding. I agree it would be nice to have all Met Sight on 1 line and all open on the other, but at least to me, it really dont matter enough to make up for the scheduling inconvience. As far as shooting Met. Sight on an Open line and shooting faster, I shoot both guns at the same speed. Maybe I am the exception, but you have the same amount of time for both guns, so use it all. That, and if you cant tune out everyone else and shoot your own gun, that is something you need to fix before you get to the Cup. (I dont mean you personally steve, just a point made in general)

[rhino]

I want to make $3250 a week! I'd skip the Bianchi Cup for that!

[Dirty Steve]

Kimber Kid, I know it all comes down to me. And I wont blame anyone for how I shoot except me. Just some folks blaze through with thier open guns(which is nuts, use all your time) and it was a little un-nerving for me. I know I should have shot my game and tuned them out but it is hard to shoot your pace when every one else is blazing.

I will work on it though. Just like after a match in Louisianna I worked on slamming my magazines into the gun because I had one fall out before firing my second shot at the ten yard mover. I had ever failed to fully seat a mag before that day.

Dirty Steve, Out.

[Kimberkid]

Steve,

I totally agree that it can be a bit unnerving. I didnt mean to speak at you personally, I havent had the pleasure of meeting you, so I didnt intend to be correcting and talking smack, forgive me if it sounded that way. If you wear electronic muffs, turn them off. If you dont, double plug. Thats what ended up helping me focus on my gun, instead of the others. As they say around here, just shoot em in the middle and you'll be fine.

[Action Pistolero]

Shoot next to Alan for a while and you get used to shooting at your own speed. I'm normally shooting the third plate as he finishes.

The reason for different rules is so the many are not punished because of a few. There are some shooters that can't or don't want to go prone.

Here's what it all boils down too:

If you have good eyes, don't want to go prone and you don't want to spend alot of money shoot Production.

If you have good eyes, don't care to go prone and can spend a little more money shoot Metallic.

If you have bad eyes, can't go prone and can spend some more money then shoot Open Modified.

If you just want to flop around or shoot standing on your head from 25 on back, can spend a good bit of money and just want to have one hell of a good time shooting a match then shoot Open.

If you have bad eyes, can't go prone and can't afford the ammo for the production gun, I'm sorry I can't help you.

I'll get off the soapbox now.

Kevin

[rhino]

Then there's always the "shoot what you have and have fun with it" routine.

[SRT Driver]

GM,

I figured in US$, not NZ$. Can't imagine how much it costs our foreign friends to play the game.

Rhino,

I too wished I made $3250 a week but it sounds better than the .47c I bring home.

[Kimberkid]

$0.47 HAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!! whoo JB, you had me goin there for a sec. How many .47's did it take to make up you RR Met Sight gun. Or the Nowlin you stole? Wanna shoot Friday night??

[gm iprod]

SRT

A good Bianchi gun will run the equivalent of 3-4 months wages for most guys down here, unless we get someone up in the US to build one then it may go 4-5 months wage.

Plus: Optics, extra mags, Holster.

So it can be a little hard on the budget. But it is worth it.

[Allgoodhits]

NRA AP Committee viewers,

I think it should become policy, that if the NRA makes a "more restrictive" equipment rule change that it should NOT take place until the "second" BC after the Rule Change.

WHY? We all know how long it takes to get a custom gun build, and modified when sent back to the builder. It can be many months or in some cases a year or more. Some shooters may have committed to a gun builder and the gun is promised in March. Well sometime in January they learn that the RULES have changed for the biggest match of the year in MAY. They may be screwed.

If they simply make it a year later for these types of RULE changes it will serve at least two purposes.

1) The shooter is not screwed for that first year.

2) It would give more time for consideration of the change.

Again, I would limit this requirement to equipment restrictive changes.

MJ

[Dirty Steve]

Well the rule changes effect every one the same. So I don't see a legitamit gripe. Granted the commitee could meet two or three times during the cup. Or meet two days prior to or two days after the cup at Columbia and get things ironed out in short order. I think the NRA could pay the room fees for those extra days. Instead of having a bunch of teleconferences.

Hey Kevin, Why don't you suggest this to Rudy! Stay an additional two days after the Cup and do any rule changes then. Have a two hour meeting in the morning and two hours in the evening for two days and get the rules worked out quickly. The NRA has my approval to pay for everyones room on the commitee for those additional two days.

Dirty Steve, Out

[Alan550]

Steve,

I can't agree that the changes affect everyone the same. There has been NO OFFICIAL NOTICE of the rule changes for the next Cup, and if not for this forum, I'd have no idea that I need to get a new grip safety fitted before the Cup this year! After attending the so-called "shooter's meeting" last year, I'd also be considering practice with no wings, and no prone at 25 yds.

So for the shooters who haven't been notified, it's not "the same for everyone". There are always new shooters there, even some who have not shot the events at all somewhere else before they arrive, so how are the to know in time to meet all the qualifications? Martin has a good point. IDPA only has rule changes every 2 years, SASS rule changes are limited for Cowboy shooters (I'm not sure exactly how) but to have new rules to abide by every year is ridiculous!

Some have claimed that the changes "level the playing field". I say PHOOEY! If that's the case, try telling the High-Power shooters that they can't use slings or shooting coats anymore, that levels the field if I ever heard it!

(Soap box mode off!)

Alan~^~

[Dirty Steve]

Alan,

I got this from Rudy when I requested an entry packet for this years cup....

To whom it concern:

The NRA Action Shooting Committee took the following actions. As a note, these are only proposals and will not be finalized until the NRA Board of Directors have approved them at their meeting in January 2005.

A. Add to the NRA Bianchi Cup Program to read: Page 22, Section C6, Special Awards - K. Open / Metallic Aggregate Award.

B. Change the NRA Bianchi Cup Program to read: Page 1, Section B1; Entry Information - to read: C. The U.S. National Action Pistol Championship may be won by citizens of any country, except by those whose countries restrict participation and winning their championship to their own citizens.

C. Add to the NRA Action Pistol Rule Book new firearm category: Page 6- Add rule 3.1.2 Open Modified Firearm - A Semi-automatic handgun or revolver used in competition shall be serviceable and safe. All standard safety features of guns must operate properly. If any pistol is observed to be unserviceable or unsafe, it shall be withdrawn at the request of the tournament director. The term "firearm" as used in these rules includes anything attached, permanently or temporarily, to the pistol. Wings are prohibited.

D. Change the rule for the Barricade Event. Page 13, add to rule 7.7 Barricade Event - Metallic sight firearm and Open modified firearm shooters must fire all stages in the standing position.

A motion was introduced to amend the current rule 7.7 Barricade Event.

E. Change the rules for the Practical Event. Page 12, add to rule 7.6 Practical Event- Competitors must fire the 10 and 15-yard line segments in the standing position. Competitors may fire the 25 and 50-yard line segments in the prone position..

F. Change the rules for the Falling Plate Event. Page 13, add to rule 7.9 Falling Plate Event - Competitors must fire the 10, 15 and 20-yard line segments in the standing position. Competitors may fire the 25-yard line segment in the prone position.

G. Amend the rules to the NRA Action Pistol Distinguished Program. Page 61, add to program:

Eligibility:

d. Recognition for award of the Distinguished Badge is retroactive to 1985 for OPEN and 1998 for METALLIC.

e. OPEN and METALLIC scores will be counted separately for medal purposes.

Course of Fire:

b. (At the end of the second sentence) in OPEN and 85% in METALLIC. (e.g., in a 1920 point aggregate, the minimum score required to qualify would be 1824 in OPEN and 1632 in METALLIC).

Awards:

a. 10 Points to the highest scoring non-distinguished competitor who fires a qualifying score.

H. Add to the NRA Action Pistol Rules , Pages 6-7; 3.1, 3.2, 3.3, and 3.4 to say, "All standard safety features of guns must operate properly".

Rudy Dufour

Program Coordinator

Action Pistol

Notice from the Co-ordinator is as Official as it could get. Over five months notice is plenty in my opinion. If some one does not request any info till the last minute who's fault is it? Anyone that has emailed to get a packet got the info. That is fair. Waiting till the last minute like some folks do is not anyones fault but their own. I just don't see why all the fuss over rule changes. My newgun with all the bells and whistles will be done shortly. I can take the wings off if they are out lawed. No big deal. If the mover base is thrown out I just remount the scope lower which is better any way. I see no big deal. I have been averaging 445-455 with open sights on the mover and can not wait to see what a base and dot will do to my score.

And in July and August I do shoot high power with out a jacket. I'll be darned if I am going to wear a sweat shirt and jacket in 100 plus temps. My scores are about the same. Becuase I am more comfortable and don't rush when I am cooler with out the jacket. They are a little lower but I wont torture myself for a club match.

Dirty Steve, Out.

[Action Pistolero]

Anyone that uses this forum has no excuses about not hearing about rule changes. If you will notice that everything that was mentioned in that letter from Rudy has already been discussed in this thread.

I no sooner walked in the door last night after 10 days on the road and received a phone call from a shooter that was all confused about the changes. He had a good excuse. He doesn't have web access.

The rule changes for next year are official but they have to wait until Jan 1st before they can be published. They were approved by the A/P committee and the rules committee in Nov.

As far as I know the next A/P committee meeting will be at Bianchi. I believe it normally takes place on Sunday after the match.

Kevin

[Dirty Steve]

Kevin, Not having access to the web is a good excuse. Just me living way way out in the boonies and having it I kind of forget some people refuse to step in to the 20th Century. Which puts them behind since it is now the 21st Century. I know a guy who says that smokeless powder may not just be another passing fad.

I bet the new rule books are printed and ready to go out come Jan 2nd for anyone curious and concerned enough to get one. Kevin has done a great job fighting for what folks want and keeping us informed. I really don't care from a shooters point of view how the rules are changed. Just from running a match point of view it would make it easier if the rules were the same for each firearm class. I know that will be addressed in the future. I just hope Kevin is willing to put up with fighting the good fight.

Dirty Steve, Out

[Allgoodhits]

Any RULE CHANGES which effect equipment restrictions need to be well thought out and tested before implemention so that the impact to all can have the opportunity to surface. Drug companies take years to put a drug on the market, because they need to know about side effects. RULE changes pertaining to equipment may have numerous and severe side effects on some firearms and virtually no effect on others. Let's not rush to judgement.

My point about RULE changes which "effect equipment limitations" was only that 5 months is not enough time. If you learn in mid January and the Match is late May that is closer to 4 months. Moreover, try to get a printed RULE BOOK from the NRA's Member services. Effective January, but when will they be printed and "available" for distribution? Of the 140-160 BC shooters, how many actively read this forum? How do the others, the majority learn? Read on.

First, "Officially" the RULES will be January 2005 when the book is printed, that is why it is called a RULE BOOK. Anything prior to that is "likely" but not certain. "The fat lady has not yet sung" until the RULE BOOK is printed. I believe Rudy's comments "carefully and deliberately" supports that. However, Kevin, thank you for the heads up on what is "likely" a sure thing. If this were the STOCK market and we were brokers, would it be considered insider trading and illegal? Ask Martha who resides in Alderson WV near Hinton! How many times have you shot an IDPA match where it was a surpise stage, and the surprise was that many of the shooters knew what the stage was. I am not saying that this forum discussion is wrong, what I am saying is, that those who do not spend their life on the internet may be "disadvantaged unnecessarily". The BC is a shooting contest, not a keyboard kontest.

Second, I was not unaware that the BrianEnos website was the newly designated official vendor of NRA RULES. Perhaps, the NRA should add a link from their site.

Third, we must all think beyond on own personal little pond. Sure, taking wings off "may" not be a problem. I have seen guns where the shroud becomes the scope mount and the wings are not removeable. Not such a simple solution for a quick remedy in the field, or if you have to ship your gun to a well known gunsmith to have it modified. You learn "officially" of the problem in January. You ship the gun and wait 2 weeks to more likely several months to get it back. Now that 5 months may be reduced to weeks. As soon as the "safety features" arose a month or more ago, I took my gun to my gunsmith to have the series 80 stuff put back in. It no doubt will add from .25 - .75 lbs to my trigger pull. I do not have my gun back yet.

Another "slippery slope" of the safety feature issue. A GLOCK "safe action" pistol has a 5.5lb connector and GLOCK in their own words will not put the 3.5lb connector in anything except their "target or tactical" models for "safety" reasons. So do I have to have a 5.5lb connector in a non target or tactical GLOCK to meet the safety feature test? What does the shooter do? How will that be interpreted? Will it be interpreted consistently? Avoid the issue with a delay for a season to let the "loopholes surface" then make a more informed decision knowing the magnitude of the impact as applied to a lot of different shooters and their unique modified firearms.

Now you are at the CUP. You find out when you get there, that someone with a "big name" didn't make the changes as they should have and they knew about it because they read the Brian Enos website. They kick, scream and whine. The Match Officials "amend" the rules and permit them and possibly others to shoot their "illegal" guns. (Don't laugh similar things have happened) You, on the other hand were without "your" gun for several months having it put into "written RULE BOOK compliance" yet you are the one who gets screwed. A simple delay of effectiveness of equipment rule changes would reduce the likelihood of this situation. A level playing field will never exist until all competitors are given the same firearm, issued the ammo etc. But we certainly should remove the mounds that you can not see over.

I am grateful to Kevin and the others on the committee whom have stepped up to the plate to make things better. Unless one has served on any type of formal committee or board of directors they have no idea how time consuming, frustrating and challenging it can be. When you have finally got it nailed down perfect, voted on and passed you learn of a huge, awshit! "We didn't think of that".

Keep up the good work, Kevin and others.

MJ

[Alan550]

Steve,

Well, I finally got my "Cup" forms today and you did a fine job of copying it verbatim! Now for the discrepancies......

Section C is there to add the Open Modified guns, and is the only place that the rule about safeties shows up. Does that mean that the grip safeties can be pinned or otherwise made non-functional on Open and Metallic Sight guns? Also there's no mention that they can't touch the barricade, only that no wings are allowed. Guess they just jam a slick-side shroud up there with some skateboard tape on it and fire away, huh?

Sections E & F.......to paraphrase.......say that we can now go prone at 25 on Practical & Plates..........there's no mention of the intent that this should only apply to Open class shooters, so I guess the Open Modified and Metallic Sight shooters can go prone too?

What a screwup!

Alan~^~

[Dirty Steve]

Alan,

What I posted was straight from an email from Rudy. If the info packet has something diffrent, that will be a hoot. But I will wait till I get the officail rules book before changing any practice routine. And at the Oreintation meeting I will bring up any points that I find to my benifit to use just so he can brief me or the RO's before shooting starts if it will be allowed or not. Meaning if I find a loop hole in the rules.

Dirty Steve, Out (If you aint cheating your not trying hard enough!)

[SRT Driver]

The rule waffling really does not suprise me. But it looks like the Met Sight pistol is going to get a lot of use from now on.

I will not spend shipping both ways to "fix" a safety that has never caused a problem on my open gun.

[Dirty Steve]

What's the deal with deactivating a grip safety anyway? If the grip saftey has a hump deactivation of the safety should not be a problem. Only on my stock kimber has this ever been a problem for me. I put a gob of JB weld on it and made my own hump curing the problem.

Firing pin safeties are a little different. The one's operated off the trigger suck, where as the grip safety operated ones are not a big deal. The simplest fix would be buy a slide with out the crap for the firing pin safety and put it on the gun. Not cheap but it would be the quickest fix. If the gun dosen't have all the parts due to no place for them they should be allowed even if the lower reciever has been modified to accept the parts.

Merry Christmas,

Dirty Steve, out

[GrantJ]

It seems to me that all of the guns we are talking about are "Custom Built." Most of them are made up from a bunch of spare parts. Therefore the safety features they have are what the manufacturer (Favorite Gunsmith) fits in to them! Usually a thumb safety. My main concern is who is going to decide what is legal and what is not. Remember the trouble they ran in to with stock gun!

Hope everyone has a Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year.

GrantJ

[Action Pistolero]

SRT,

I'm not sure what you mean by "waffling" on the rules. The telecon's that we have had so far have been spent on keeping our barricade wings and getting some prone back. We have been trying to straighten out the messes from last year. I'd like to do some things to make the sport better instead of taking time to put out the fires. The grip safety issue came up out of the blue as far as I'm concerned. I was the only one that didn't cave but I'm only one voice out of 7. I'm hoping that when the trigger pull issue hits we can take care of both of them at the same time. The part that really bothers me is that we created the Open Modified category to get more new shooters to Bianchi. Now those shooters will have to fix the grip safety just to shoot Bianchi. If I was one of those shooters and heard about this rule change I think I'd go for the Steel Challenge instead. Seems to me NRA has just shot themselves in the foot on this one.

I would assume that a shooter could go to check in with a letter from the gunsmith that the only safety built into the gun was the thumb safety. If it were me I would have another grip safety fitted as a back up. Columbia is a long way for me to go not to shoot.

Kevin

[SRT Driver]

Kevin,

The waffling I'm referring to is the prone rule change. Last year..could not. Next year..at 25 and 50. Obviously, the outcry was enough to get the board to notice and we thank you for it since our voice ( the competitors that contacted the NRA)was largely ignored.

You are fighting the good fight but it seems to me that the NRA does not know what it wants or needs from AP. Where are these proposed changes coming from?

Not from AP competitors..I hope. And not from anyone I know.

You are a loud voice and an active competitor which brings credibility to the board. I know there are others but most on the board are NOT AP shooters.

Hopefully, with board members like you, the other AP board members might gain an understanding of the sport (which they clearly do not have) which is different than any other NRA sanctioned sport and then realize that these changes are unnecessary and destructive.

The only thing that these changes are doing is creating an arms race of a different kind, unlike the "arms race" during the early '90's in IPSC. The "NRA AP Arms Race" is not advancing the sport in either popularity or technology. It is creating a race to get pistols to and from the pistolsmiths to keep pace with rule changes.

[GrantJ]

It seems to me that they are not interested in what the competitors have to say. It also seems that the information may not always be getting to the people that make the decisions. If you have an opinion on what is happening with Action Pistol then I would strongly suggest that you contact Rudy at the NRA and let him know your Concerns. I would also suggest that you copy in the members of the Committee. I do not have their contact details but I am sure that Rudy or Kevin would gladly supply you all with the relevant information.

Hope to see you all at the "Cup" 2005

GrantJ