Better "control" during rapid fire

[saggy]

Hi folks,

I've been working on doubles and triples recently and have detected a pattern. I tend to miss subsequent shots low (the first is pretty accurate, after that a little less so, but most of the error is going low, not left/right). During range work today, I believe I might have discovered the cause. Pretty sure my strong hand is clamping down (tightening) during recoil driving the second and third shots lower. To give you a sense, I'm using IDPA targets and my first shot will be in the 0 zone, and then I'll pull down into roughly the middle of the -1 zone below the 0 zone.

I was thinking about how I'd go about correcting this. Doesn't seem like there would be any dry fire drills to help with this. But if so, I'd love to know. Regardless, does anyone have any tips to help get my rapid fire groups tighter?

Thank you.

[a.roberts]

Are you watching your sights at all on that second/third shot?

[saggy]

Are you watching your sights at all on that second/third shot?

Well, sorta. I see them move. But they are too fast to focus on. So I am just trying to be aware of their movement in my field of vision as well as trying be aware of the movement in my hands.

[Sin-ster]

Tightening up your strong hand during recoil may well be the cause, though that also tends to move shots laterally some at the same time. (Left if you're a righty, right if you're a lefty.)

In any event, it's a sure sign that you're fighting the gun pretty hard instead of just letting the sights lift and settle again.

As you describe it, you're also outrunning your current level of seeing; even wrestling with the pistol in recoil, you should not be stringing shots low on the target if you're seeing what you need to see to get the hits. (It will be slower of course as you wait for the sight to lift, dip, return to alignment-- but definitely not as slow as dropping the time for non-0 hits.) IOW, slow down and see the sights settle enough for accurate hits on every shot you fire.

Also, be aware that if you're actively trying to rattle off quick follow ups (especially just seeing a "blur" where the sights are), the tendency is to snatch at the trigger as you're trying to time its return to the notch. This will often lead to low-left hits (for a righty), though the lateral drift can be masked by other things to the point where it's 95% low/5% lateral drift-- giving the impression that you're not really whacking the trigger, at a glance.

Properly run Bill Drills should help you out in this regard-- provided you actually allow yourself to see the sights settle before breaking each shot. When you're no longer fighting the gun so much, outrunning the sights will result in high hits instead of low-- letting you know that you still need to slow down, but at least indicating that your grip is remaining neutral throughout the firing cycle.

Once you're able to eliminate the vast majority of the low stringing, you *may* want to consider playing around with your recoil spring weight for that last (little) edge-- though I would caution you against immediately finding a "gear fix" for a problem with technique. Though a heavy recoil spring will slam the slide into battery at the end of the firing cycle and cause a SLIGHT dip in the sights, going lighter will not solve this problem if it's so bad that you're getting hits in the center of the -1 zone.

[Mark R]

Too heavy of a recoil spring will cause you to shoot low on second shot...a heavy spring will slam the slide forward enough to cause the gun to dip during the second shot. Fire one shot and watch the sights recover...if it dips, then try a lighter recoil spring....but only light enough to keep the barrel from dipping.

I run a 12# spring in my para sx16 and Glock 35, both 40 caliber guns.

[saggy]

Ok, great info. Thanks.

I'm a novice shooter learning the craft. I used to drive more shots left with my trigger. But have been improving my trigger work. Won't claim to be done with that yet.

I certainly haven't been waiting for sights to return either. Need to read about this Bill drill.

[Flexmoney]

Too heavy of a recoil spring will cause you to shoot low on second shot...a heavy spring will slam the slide forward enough to cause the gun to dip during the second shot. Fire one shot and watch the sights recover...if it dips, then try a lighter recoil spring....but only light enough to keep the barrel from dipping.

I run a 12# spring in my para sx16 and Glock 35, both 40 caliber guns.

Ugh. Cause, or factor? I'm the one that points my gun, not the spring.

[Flexmoney]

I certainly haven't been waiting for sights to return either.

What are you doing, then?

[Hi-Power Jack]

Need to read about this Bill drill.

Saggy - different variations on the theme, but basically

you put a USPSA target out about 5 yards or so (variations

occur here) and you shoot 10 - 20 shots (up to you) at the A-Zone as

fast as you can, on the timer.

This works on your grip, trigger pull, etc.

[Mark R]

Too heavy of a recoil spring will cause you to shoot low on second shot...a heavy spring will slam the slide forward enough to cause the gun to dip during the second shot. Fire one shot and watch the sights recover...if it dips, then try a lighter recoil spring....but only light enough to keep the barrel from dipping.

I run a 12# spring in my para sx16 and Glock 35, both 40 caliber guns.

Ugh. Cause, or factor? I'm the one that points my gun, not the spring.

Sorry you disagree Flex...but it helped with my steel gun.

[Flexmoney]

Too heavy of a recoil spring will cause you to shoot low on second shot...a heavy spring will slam the slide forward enough to cause the gun to dip during the second shot. Fire one shot and watch the sights recover...if it dips, then try a lighter recoil spring....but only light enough to keep the barrel from dipping.

I run a 12# spring in my para sx16 and Glock 35, both 40 caliber guns.

Ugh. Cause, or factor? I'm the one that points my gun, not the spring.

Sorry you disagree Flex...but it helped with my steel gun.

I disagree with the terms. The spring is a factor. There are many factors and variables.

[Flexmoney]

A Bill Drill is a draw and 6 shots that hit all Alphas. (you might shoot an 8y Bill Drill or a 10y Bill Drill, but it is always a draw and 6 Alphas).

A training variation that extends on that are the Matt Burkett Timing Drills. Here you can adjust your grip and see the results. You can find the timing drills down on this page: http://www.doublealpha.biz/courses-tips/matts-tips/

[Sac Law Man]

Another thing of critical importance that is often overlooked is balance. This is especially evident when firing rapid fire. Many shooters will start off ok, but after 2 or 3 shots the recoil is pushing them back, and some overcompensate by driving the gun back down. If you are going to shoot Bill Drills, make sure you weight is forward, you are balanced and you stay that way. An exaggeration is watching Jerry Michulek fire his revolvers super fast. When he is done, he almost falls forward, this is because he is keeping his weight forward to help control recoil, and keep his shots on target.

[ricardo28]

May be the OP needs to stop pulling the trigger and wait that extra split second until he sees his sights. A .20 split and a .30-.35 split can be several points. Dont pull the trigger until you know what your hitting. Gun changes will help but in the end, you shoot the gun, it dont shoot on its own. Lots of practice and you will be at the .20 splits with all ALPHAS...

[Sin-ster]

Quick notes about Bill Drills as practice instead of skill tests:

Forget your draw. Skill test, the draw is everything; we can all trigger A's at 7 yards quickly. Don't draw at all if you want this drill to teach you about recoil management; start with an ideal grip.

Torque your support hand. You will be amazed at the results.

See the sight acceptably settle for every shot. Even if you're holding As and stringing them up and down the box, you may want to get more stringent on what you accept. Fist sized groups at 7 should be common, not surprising. Slow down and see if you can call every shot.

If you're trying to perfect recoil management and shoot this drill clean 95% of the time, instead of moving the target back further, try it on an 8" steel plate. Or with a Classic target. Both will stress the key proponents of what you're trying to accomplish better than adding 3 yards of distance.

[saggy]

I certainly haven't been waiting for sights to return either.

What are you doing, then?

A reasonable question. I was under a mistaken notion that you shouldn't be trying to see the sights move. Was also thinking that the muzzle would settle back fast enough without me waiting for it. And with a proper grip, that muzzle would return to where it started.

I went to the range and put 100 downrange doing this Bill drill. I get the idea now. Doing this correctly will help me see better, as well as be able to better observe if the muzzle isn't settling back where it should so I can make adjustments.

In retrospect, it makes so much sense I'm kicking myself for not having figured it out. C'est la vie.

Thanks again for the help. Looking forward to working on it.

[ninemmbill]

I certainly haven't been waiting for sights to return either.

What are you doing, then?

A reasonable question. I was under a mistaken notion that you shouldn't be trying to see the sights move. Was also thinking that the muzzle would settle back fast enough without me waiting for it. And with a proper grip, that muzzle would return to where it started.

I went to the range and put 100 downrange doing this Bill drill. I get the idea now. Doing this correctly will help me see better, as well as be able to better observe if the muzzle isn't settling back where it should so I can make adjustments.

In retrospect, it makes so much sense I'm kicking myself for not having figured it out. C'est la vie.

Thanks again for the help. Looking forward to working on it.

It's all about watching the sights move and not breaking the next shot until they return to the proper alignment on the target.

A change in grip or recoil spring may help adjust where the gun returns to after a shot to speed up the process.

Edited October 13, 2012 by ninemmbill

[BoyGlock]

If you're trying to perfect recoil management and shoot this drill clean 95% of the time, instead of moving the target back further, try it on an 8" steel plate.

I wont try that from 7y

[Sin-ster]

If you're trying to perfect recoil management and shoot this drill clean 95% of the time, instead of moving the target back further, try it on an 8" steel plate.

I wont try that from 7y

Well, 23 feet.