Stage DQ vs. Match DQ?

[Alaskapopo]

If its a play on words I am all for calling it a more serious procedural. But there needs to be some middle ground between a match DQ and a simple pro for the situations outlined previously.

Pat

[landshark45]

Here is a perfectly good case for a Stage Zero penalty. At FNH3G this year, there were some extra safety rules adopted because the range owner requested them. One of them was no handling of two guns simultaneously, and another was no reholstering on the clock. No problem; that's the price of using a great facility.

Stage 3 started with an empty slung rifle; somebody on our squad got a DQ'ed because his sling broke and dumped his gun. Mind you, that's a rifle that is verified clear by the RO prior to the beep, and it was explicitly given during the stage brief that the 180 rule did not apply until the shooter started to load the rifle. Therefore, by my understanding, there was no safety issue involved in dumping the rifle on the ground. On the other hand, because the shooter had already drawn and charged his pistol, there was (because of the two range rules listed above) no safe way for him to retrieve his rifle---it would have required either holstering on the clock or handling two guns at once.

This should have been a Stage Zero (for a category we could perhaps call Non-Safety Related Equipment Failure), but was instead a Match DQ.

I don't even think this should be a "Stage Zero". I shoot a match every month that directly addresses this issue.

Rifles are always carried slung cruiser ready (verified by the competitor & RO before the beginning of any stage) if for some reason your cruiser ready rifle hits the ground you will not earn yourself a DQ.

Iv had a sling break while in a full sprint at this match.

This rule is designed for multi gun because of the circumstances and stress on gear that we have no control over. IE slung rifles.

Now if a weapon is dropped while loaded for any reason theres your match DQ plain and simple.

[ac4wordplay]

The MD/RMs job is to enforece the rules, not let them shoot and not invite additional liability by letting them shoot because they "feel bad" for them.

It seems that it's more about MDs wanting their match to be "liked" by the participants (and with the recent surge in 3gun interest, many participants are recent 3gun enthusiasts - less experienced/skilled and have a higher rate of violation) so that there will be enthusiasm and positive PR (translating to full attendance and room to increase the match fee) for when the match is held next year. Some matches would have a curiously high DQ rate (which, along with the disappointed/angered DQees, various discussions that follow, etc. becomes bad PR for the match) if all the violations were called. I've seen a variety of violations ignored/minimized/reduced for these reasons - it's been surprising and disappointing.

An RO who DQs should be moved to a position where they do not handle guns while they are working the match.

In addition, if an RO can't oversee their own compliance with safety requirements (either from a lack of knowledge of the rules, or an inability to perform in compliance with the rules), then I would be reluctant to have them in a position to oversee (while on the clock - that's to say RO as primary, or on the clipboard) a competitor's compliance with safety requirements.

The term "Stage DQ" should go away, and fast.

Agreed.

[gerritm]

Here is a perfectly good case for a Stage Zero penalty. At FNH3G this year, there were some extra safety rules adopted because the range owner requested them. One of them was no handling of two guns simultaneously, and another was no reholstering on the clock. No problem; that's the price of using a great facility.

Stage 3 started with an empty slung rifle; somebody on our squad got a DQ'ed because his sling broke and dumped his gun. Mind you, that's a rifle that is verified clear by the RO prior to the beep, and it was explicitly given during the stage brief that the 180 rule did not apply until the shooter started to load the rifle. Therefore, by my understanding, there was no safety issue involved in dumping the rifle on the ground. On the other hand, because the shooter had already drawn and charged his pistol, there was (because of the two range rules listed above) no safe way for him to retrieve his rifle---it would have required either holstering on the clock or handling two guns at once.

This should have been a Stage Zero (for a category we could perhaps call Non-Safety Related Equipment Failure), but was instead a Match DQ.

I don't even think this should be a "Stage Zero". I shoot a match every month that directly addresses this issue.

Rifles are always carried slung cruiser ready (verified by the competitor & RO before the beginning of any stage) if for some reason your cruiser ready rifle hits the ground you will not earn yourself a DQ.

Iv had a sling break while in a full sprint at this match.

This rule is designed for multi gun because of the circumstances and stress on gear that we have no control over. IE slung rifles.

Now if a weapon is dropped while loaded for any reason theres your match DQ plain and simple.

I shoot this match also and Fred simplifies the rules of "safe" condition when abandoning a firearm by making you drop the mag and rack the shells out. No questions if it is safe. Doesn't matter if it is a rifle, shotgun, or pistol. Unload it before abandoning it. Match DQ if you don't.

gerritm

[Alaskapopo]

Here is a perfectly good case for a Stage Zero penalty. At FNH3G this year, there were some extra safety rules adopted because the range owner requested them. One of them was no handling of two guns simultaneously, and another was no reholstering on the clock. No problem; that's the price of using a great facility.

Stage 3 started with an empty slung rifle; somebody on our squad got a DQ'ed because his sling broke and dumped his gun. Mind you, that's a rifle that is verified clear by the RO prior to the beep, and it was explicitly given during the stage brief that the 180 rule did not apply until the shooter started to load the rifle. Therefore, by my understanding, there was no safety issue involved in dumping the rifle on the ground. On the other hand, because the shooter had already drawn and charged his pistol, there was (because of the two range rules listed above) no safe way for him to retrieve his rifle---it would have required either holstering on the clock or handling two guns at once.

This should have been a Stage Zero (for a category we could perhaps call Non-Safety Related Equipment Failure), but was instead a Match DQ.

I don't even think this should be a "Stage Zero". I shoot a match every month that directly addresses this issue.

Rifles are always carried slung cruiser ready (verified by the competitor & RO before the beginning of any stage) if for some reason your cruiser ready rifle hits the ground you will not earn yourself a DQ.

Iv had a sling break while in a full sprint at this match.

This rule is designed for multi gun because of the circumstances and stress on gear that we have no control over. IE slung rifles.

Now if a weapon is dropped while loaded for any reason theres your match DQ plain and simple.

I shoot this match also and Fred simplifies the rules of "safe" condition when abandoning a firearm by making you drop the mag and rack the shells out. No questions if it is safe. Doesn't matter if it is a rifle, shotgun, or pistol. Unload it before abandoning it. Match DQ if you don't.

gerritm

The isssue with that however is for tube fed shotguns. It really sucks to have to rack 4 or 5 shells out of your gun.

Pat

[landshark45]

Here is a perfectly good case for a Stage Zero penalty. At FNH3G this year, there were some extra safety rules adopted because the range owner requested them. One of them was no handling of two guns simultaneously, and another was no reholstering on the clock. No problem; that's the price of using a great facility.

Stage 3 started with an empty slung rifle; somebody on our squad got a DQ'ed because his sling broke and dumped his gun. Mind you, that's a rifle that is verified clear by the RO prior to the beep, and it was explicitly given during the stage brief that the 180 rule did not apply until the shooter started to load the rifle. Therefore, by my understanding, there was no safety issue involved in dumping the rifle on the ground. On the other hand, because the shooter had already drawn and charged his pistol, there was (because of the two range rules listed above) no safe way for him to retrieve his rifle---it would have required either holstering on the clock or handling two guns at once.

This should have been a Stage Zero (for a category we could perhaps call Non-Safety Related Equipment Failure), but was instead a Match DQ.

I don't even think this should be a "Stage Zero". I shoot a match every month that directly addresses this issue.

Rifles are always carried slung cruiser ready (verified by the competitor & RO before the beginning of any stage) if for some reason your cruiser ready rifle hits the ground you will not earn yourself a DQ.

Iv had a sling break while in a full sprint at this match.

This rule is designed for multi gun because of the circumstances and stress on gear that we have no control over. IE slung rifles.

Now if a weapon is dropped while loaded for any reason theres your match DQ plain and simple.

I shoot this match also and Fred simplifies the rules of "safe" condition when abandoning a firearm by making you drop the mag and rack the shells out. No questions if it is safe. Doesn't matter if it is a rifle, shotgun, or pistol. Unload it before abandoning it. Match DQ if you don't.

gerritm

The isssue with that however is for tube fed shotguns. It really sucks to have to rack 4 or 5 shells out of your gun.

Pat

It does suck to rack shells out. Or shoot em all into the last target.

But this is part of the challenge, round count & target count. Iv got a video somewhere where I load up 6 shells only to shoot 2. Lost a lot of time cus due to my lack of multi tasking. Now I'm constantly scanning at the end of a shotgun run so as to minimize time added.

[EkuJustice]

Here is a perfectly good case for a Stage Zero penalty. At FNH3G this year, there were some extra safety rules adopted because the range owner requested them. One of them was no handling of two guns simultaneously, and another was no reholstering on the clock. No problem; that's the price of using a great facility.

Stage 3 started with an empty slung rifle; somebody on our squad got a DQ'ed because his sling broke and dumped his gun. Mind you, that's a rifle that is verified clear by the RO prior to the beep, and it was explicitly given during the stage brief that the 180 rule did not apply until the shooter started to load the rifle. Therefore, by my understanding, there was no safety issue involved in dumping the rifle on the ground. On the other hand, because the shooter had already drawn and charged his pistol, there was (because of the two range rules listed above) no safe way for him to retrieve his rifle---it would have required either holstering on the clock or handling two guns at once.

This should have been a Stage Zero (for a category we could perhaps call Non-Safety Related Equipment Failure), but was instead a Match DQ.

There is a way to safely do that situation without handeling 2 guns at once. Unload and show clear and give the stage up

[Alaskapopo]

Here is a perfectly good case for a Stage Zero penalty. At FNH3G this year, there were some extra safety rules adopted because the range owner requested them. One of them was no handling of two guns simultaneously, and another was no reholstering on the clock. No problem; that's the price of using a great facility.

Stage 3 started with an empty slung rifle; somebody on our squad got a DQ'ed because his sling broke and dumped his gun. Mind you, that's a rifle that is verified clear by the RO prior to the beep, and it was explicitly given during the stage brief that the 180 rule did not apply until the shooter started to load the rifle. Therefore, by my understanding, there was no safety issue involved in dumping the rifle on the ground. On the other hand, because the shooter had already drawn and charged his pistol, there was (because of the two range rules listed above) no safe way for him to retrieve his rifle---it would have required either holstering on the clock or handling two guns at once.

This should have been a Stage Zero (for a category we could perhaps call Non-Safety Related Equipment Failure), but was instead a Match DQ.

I don't even think this should be a "Stage Zero". I shoot a match every month that directly addresses this issue.

Rifles are always carried slung cruiser ready (verified by the competitor & RO before the beginning of any stage) if for some reason your cruiser ready rifle hits the ground you will not earn yourself a DQ.

Iv had a sling break while in a full sprint at this match.

This rule is designed for multi gun because of the circumstances and stress on gear that we have no control over. IE slung rifles.

Now if a weapon is dropped while loaded for any reason theres your match DQ plain and simple.

I shoot this match also and Fred simplifies the rules of "safe" condition when abandoning a firearm by making you drop the mag and rack the shells out. No questions if it is safe. Doesn't matter if it is a rifle, shotgun, or pistol. Unload it before abandoning it. Match DQ if you don't.

gerritm

The isssue with that however is for tube fed shotguns. It really sucks to have to rack 4 or 5 shells out of your gun.

Pat

It does suck to rack shells out. Or shoot em all into the last target.

But this is part of the challenge, round count & target count. Iv got a video somewhere where I load up 6 shells only to shoot 2. Lost a lot of time cus due to my lack of multi tasking. Now I'm constantly scanning at the end of a shotgun run so as to minimize time added.

I guess but I would rather be tested on my shooting ability vs my memory. (on how much to load)

Pat

[EkuJustice]

Here is a perfectly good case for a Stage Zero penalty. At FNH3G this year, there were some extra safety rules adopted because the range owner requested them. One of them was no handling of two guns simultaneously, and another was no reholstering on the clock. No problem; that's the price of using a great facility.

Stage 3 started with an empty slung rifle; somebody on our squad got a DQ'ed because his sling broke and dumped his gun. Mind you, that's a rifle that is verified clear by the RO prior to the beep, and it was explicitly given during the stage brief that the 180 rule did not apply until the shooter started to load the rifle. Therefore, by my understanding, there was no safety issue involved in dumping the rifle on the ground. On the other hand, because the shooter had already drawn and charged his pistol, there was (because of the two range rules listed above) no safe way for him to retrieve his rifle---it would have required either holstering on the clock or handling two guns at once.

This should have been a Stage Zero (for a category we could perhaps call Non-Safety Related Equipment Failure), but was instead a Match DQ.

I don't even think this should be a "Stage Zero". I shoot a match every month that directly addresses this issue.

Rifles are always carried slung cruiser ready (verified by the competitor & RO before the beginning of any stage) if for some reason your cruiser ready rifle hits the ground you will not earn yourself a DQ.

Iv had a sling break while in a full sprint at this match.

This rule is designed for multi gun because of the circumstances and stress on gear that we have no control over. IE slung rifles.

Now if a weapon is dropped while loaded for any reason theres your match DQ plain and simple.

I shoot this match also and Fred simplifies the rules of "safe" condition when abandoning a firearm by making you drop the mag and rack the shells out. No questions if it is safe. Doesn't matter if it is a rifle, shotgun, or pistol. Unload it before abandoning it. Match DQ if you don't.

gerritm

The isssue with that however is for tube fed shotguns. It really sucks to have to rack 4 or 5 shells out of your gun.

Pat

It does suck to rack shells out. Or shoot em all into the last target.

But this is part of the challenge, round count & target count. Iv got a video somewhere where I load up 6 shells only to shoot 2. Lost a lot of time cus due to my lack of multi tasking. Now I'm constantly scanning at the end of a shotgun run so as to minimize time added.

I guess but I would rather be tested on my shooting ability vs my memory. (on how much to load)

Pat

Time and round management are all part of 3 gun.

[landshark45]

Good thing popo shoots his Saiga he don't haft to worry bout these things.

[Alaskapopo]

Good thing popo shoots his Saiga he don't haft to worry bout these things.

It is far easier with the Saiga. I also shoot Tac Optics with a Benelli M2 and generally I feel for new shooters having to rack rounds out of a gun if your not allowed to dump them at a target. Seems like a very flawed idea to me. Chamber empty should count for empty as there is no way for the gun to fire without a round in the pipe. Three gun should be about shooting not memory games. Hell we could make you recite the gettysburg address as part of the stage too and it makes about as much sense.

Pat

Edited October 27, 2012 by Alaskapopo

[landshark45]

Good thing popo shoots his Saiga he don't haft to worry bout these things.

It is far easier with the Saiga. I also shoot Tac Optics with a Benelli M2 and generally I feel for new shooters having to rack rounds out of a gun if your not allowed to dump them at a target. Seems like a very flawed idea to me. Chamber empty should count for empty as there is no way for the gun to fire without a round in the pipe. Three gun should be about shooting not memory games. Hell we make you recite the gettysburg address as part of the stage too and it makes about as much sense.

Pat

I agree an empty chamber is 100% safe. It's just up to the whoever is making the rules.

Benellis have an advantage on being able to go empty chamber easier than most.

Nothing about memory was suggested. Just a situational awareness that comes with hi round counts on low cap guns like tac ops shotguns. I do the same thing shooting single stack.