Calling shots

[kevin c]

SiC:

You may be trying to force the shot. In bullseye you probably have a nice surprise break once you're on target acceptably, and are pressing through on the trigger. Being conscious of the much shorter time intervals common in action pistol, you might be hurrying the shot and losing the FS lift in jerking the trigger.

BE discusses this very subject in his book. The easy but oh so difficult task here is to do exactly what you do in bullseye, but compressed into two tenths of a second.

And welcome to the forums.

Kevin C.

[jkushner1]

Cannot Call Shots - any ideas for a smaller steps to awareness

I have not completely figured out the causes here. But no matter what I do, I cannot call my shots, I'm driving my gun to the targets, know when a shot breaks that it will hit say within a six in. radius, I am front sight driven and know the different types of focus BE applies to different distances, but once the rythym of shooting begins I don't have the ability to concioussly call shots, maybe I'm calling them subconcioussly (dude). What I need is a less concious visual cue that will be indicative of the beginning steps to truly calling shots - and maybe this the most I'll ever be able to perform. Maybe staying with the front sight 1/2 second longer after a shot breaks or something similar but not the intellectual process of shot break, front sight track, mental calc. that the shot went to x location - its too much for me. This has been my mind set (I forgot to renew my MENSUS membership this year) for alot of sports or technical endeavors which is: Once the process begins I operate by my senses, my awareness, not the intellectual process of calling a shot whcih really has 2-3 "thinking" sub steps.

Anyway ..... your thoughts

Jon

[wide45]

Calling the shot is totally non cerebral. What you see is what you get.

Do know where the sight was when you started working the trigger? Did you see what it did while you pressed the trigger? See where it is after the hammer falls, in that last instant before it lifts. Know what you are seeing, and you are calling the shot.

[Flexmoney]

Jon,

Rhythm and shot calling (in my opinion) shouldn't even be used in the same breath.

Shot calling is a visual activity. It takes as much time as it takes. Rhthym suggests letting the shot go...regardless of the visual input.

I think the concept you are seeking is visual patience.

[Turtle]

Flex,

I don't disagree with your last statement, but many times I'll let a shot go knowing full well that it is not an A. I know that because of where I saw the front sight in relation to the rear notch. I accept it and move on, in the interest of time. It's only when the sight is a little too far off alignment (called a D or a miss) that I call for immediate action in the form of a make up shot. Sometimes I process the visual imput too slowly and have already indexed to the next target. I'll then have to go back to that target to make up the shot. That's the worst case scenario, but it's better than finding out later that you had a miss. That's always a bad thing. You're the man, Flex!

Regards,

Todd

[mcoliver]

Calling the shot is understanding what the sights are telling you relative to the distance of your targets.

For a regular bomar notch, you can pretty much put the front sight anywhere within the notch and you'll hit the A as long as the notch is fully inside the A scoring border.

To refine the degree of precision (where in the A-zone did it hit), you have to learn to shoot groups at varying distance. To understand where your shots will be, you have to conciously try to shoot with your front sight at varying positions in the notch (left, right, up & down). And how the impact varies with this relative to the distance of your targets.

Easier said than done.

[Stuck in C]

My problem seems to be I have to think about it to register where the shot went. When Bullseye shooting (even in "Rapid Fire") it goes something like this: fire shot, while re-aligning the sights after recoil think ok, the sights were aligned like this and the front sight was here on the target when it went off, uh, lets see, thats an eight at 9 o"clock-now prepare for the next shot. Even if my eyes and brain "see" the sights in IPSC it doesn't really register because there is no time to ponder and consider what just happend. I'm not sure how to get beyond this. I wonder if this is a common problem among those of us learning to call shots.

[Ron Ankeny]

SIC:

First off, I hope you can ditch the username real soon, lol. I came into USPSA from a precision shooting background, both rifle and pistol. For me, the key to getting the IPSC gig nailed was to quit obsessing over the sights and to totally abandon the idea of classical concentration. Concentration, in the classical sense, has no place in IPSC while you are driving the pistol.

Everything you need to see has been right in front of you all along. Let yourself assimilate and process those visual inputs instantaneously at a level that is almost subconsious. For me, I was too busy "thinking" to let myself feel. There is no reason to go through a long thought process to confirm what you know unless you don't trust what you see.

PS

I have this quote in a text file permantly stuck on my computer desktop:

"First we must firmly establish our intent to accomplish a certain task. (Like walk across the room, or shoot a target.) Then, moment to moment, by consciously directing our attention to the "critical aspects" of the activity, we "learn to remove our self" (not think) during the activity, thereby allowing pure, uninterrupted awareness to guide our actions, or manifest our intent." --Brian Enos.

[DogmaDog]

Stuck in C,

I might know what you mean. I usually shoot pretty accurately, but I don't think I call my shots very precisely.

I am getting to the point that I can tell if a shot was "off", and fire a makeup without having to see the bullet hole, so I am making a generalized call. Sometimes upon reflection I can articulate to myself that the front sight was above the rear sight notch, and the shot went high, but when I actually make the decision and fire a make-up shot, all I really have is this sensation that the shot was "off" and I need to shoot again.

Of course, that doesn't happen all the time, either, but it is happening more and more often.

DD

[wide45]

If you are asking yourself "where did it go?", you pretty much skipped over calling the shot.

The essence of the call is "where is it?". It happens while the gun is shooting, not after.

Very likely when you first begin to call the shot, it will take time to react, and you won't be able to make up shots before moving on. As you learn, and build trust, it can become automatic to makeup shots without delay.

[9MX]

if the answer to my concern below is alread found anywhere in this thread or forum, i apologize in advance

at yesterday's level 1 match somewhere in north luzon, i noticed that some of my a box hits were in a snake-bite group (less an an inch i think), some were not but both shots were still in the box. in my mind, i'm trying to recall what i did to get the snake bite hits, but i can't point it out as of the moment. i was tracking my sights all the time, so i'm kinda wondering how to be consistent with it.

further, i feel that tracking sights as it goes up and down eats up time. is it a correct assumption that a proper grip on the pistol is achieved and the first shot is accurately called, there is no need to track the front sight lift but just focus on the A-box (as in the first shot) and wait for the front sight to return (i guess to more or less the same place as the first shot)?

[wide45]

Welcome to the forums.

You will find quite a lot in the forums about sight tracking, and vision, but that is not the subject of this thread.

Check the FAQ's and do a search.

[mcoliver]

is it a correct assumption that  a proper grip on the pistol is achieved and the first shot is accurately called, there is no need to track the front sight lift  but just  focus on the A-box (as in the first shot) and wait for the front sight to return (i guess to more or less the same place as the first shot)?

Dre, what you're basically saying is IF you have absolute control on your grip. However, with the dynamics of our shooting and the positions that are required to be able to engage targets, I doubt our grip will ever be consistent.

Vision-control is still the way to go. And forget focus, think, instead, awareness.

Btw, good showig on the Mt. Clark match.

[9MX]

Thanks mco

[Flexmoney]

Where your vision needs to be for the second shot will change from situation to situation.

If the targets are close enough to allow you to know where the shot will hit while using a target focus...then that is fine. But, if you are focusing on the target and can't know, then you likely won't want the vision going back out to the target on the second shot.

If the shot dictates that you need to see the sights to make and call the second shot, then you will be losing time by sliding your vision back out to the target and then back to the sights.

All this might be something to play with in practice.