Readying a DA pistol to begin a stage in Productio

[jkushner1]

Gentlemen:

For purposes of this question suppose a double action 9mm without a decocker for beginning a stage in Production class.

How do you typically ready your gun. I am am assuming that upon the "load make ready command" the following should be accomplished - I own but don't shoot a DA/SA gun in IPSC or IDPA, so accept my apologies in advance if I am way off the mark.

Step 1: While facing directly downrange, unholster the gun, fingers well clear of the trigger gaurd.

Step 2: Remove a magazine from belt and insert (or if using a seperate top off mag, insert then cycle slide to chamber a round, activate safety, remove and replace with primary mag to begin stage), cycle slide to chamber a round, activate safety.

(In accordance with regs first shot must be DA, now the tricky part without a decocker)

Step 3: With gun pointing directly downrange, notify RO that you are now going to lower the hammer to prepare the gun, now De-activate safety with fingers still well clear of trigger, grasp hammer firmly with thumb and forefinger and middle finger, pull trigger to disconnect and move hammer forward 1/8th of an inch or so THEN RELEASE TRIGGER (this will activate any secondary safety stops just in front of the firing pin) and slooooowly lower hammer until it rests on such safety stop or firing pin. again Activate safety.

4. Reholster gun while facing directly down range.

5. Await next command from RO.

Please provide any input, correction or other advice.

Thanks in advance for your help.

Jon

[Eye Cutter]

i use the thumb of my right hand to hold the hammer while i pull the trigger and slowly let the hammer fully down and not on half cock.

i find the thumb over the hammer serrations easier and safer than if i use my left thumb and forefinger to grasp the sides of the hammer. higher chances of it slipping between my fingers. this is specially true with solid hammers or those not with ring type hammers.

it's easy to do with a little practice.

:-)

[PhilTerry]

Get a Para LDA!!

[rhino]

I put my offhand finger in front of the hammer, then lower it slowly with the thumb of my strong hand. Once it's past half waty or so, I remove my finger and continue lowering.

[Vlad]

Hmm ... I'm all for the way you guys describe but on my CZ unless I keep my finger on the trigger all the way the hammer stops on the half-cock notch (well more like a 1/8 cock but you know what I mean). Thats fine by me, but ROs insist that I lower the hammer all the way to the firing pin. To do so I have to actually break the rules as writen down by the manufacturer. Amuzingly my Sig decocks to a more cocked position then my CZ on the half cock spot.

Is there a ruling regarding the halfcock notch and Production?

Vlad

[EricW]

Thats fine by me, but ROs insist that I lower the hammer all the way to the firing pin.

Your RO's carry loaded guns with the hammer contacting the firing pin? Who does that in real life, who actually has more two or more brain cells to rub together?

If that's a rule, it needs to be promptly made into an un-rule.

[Skywalker]

Hi all,

according to IPSC rulebook, I guess you cannot start a COF in Production Division with the gun hammer at half cock, it must be fully down:

8.1.2.2 “Double action” – chamber loaded, hammer fully down or de-cocked.

The de-cocked part applies (again my interpretation, but of corse the RuleMeister will chime in soon) only to guns equipped with a decocking lever, other guns (that do not have this mechanism) will have to be made ready with hammer fully down.

[Skywalker]

Well, I guess there won't be any need to bother the RuleMeister.

The FAQ section of the IPSC website says:

10. Some pistols on the approved Production Division list do not have a de-cocking lever. Are they acceptable?

Yes. All DA/SA pistols without a de-cocking lever must start with the hammer fully down. Under the supervision of a Range Officer, the competitor will use the weak hand to safely lower the hammer with the pistol pointing down range during the "load and make ready" procedure. A discharge during this procedure will be considered as unsafe gun handling and the competitor will be disqualified.

[EricW]

Yet another stellar reason for USPSA to not adopt IPSC rules.

Thanks Luca!

[Dead Buff]

Yet another stellar reason for USPSA to not adopt IPSC rules.

Thanks Luca!

I wish this would someday stop!

Sorry for the drift...

jkushner1: There seems to be no problem with your way of doing it - maybe place a finger in front of hammer to avoid that DQ thing....

[rhino]

Your RO's carry loaded guns with the hammer contacting the firing pin? Who does that in real life, who actually has more two or more brain cells to rub together?

If that's a rule, it needs to be promptly made into an un-rule.

Correct!

The proper way to carry a CZ75 in "double action mode" is to leave the hammer at that position just above fully down. It is not "half cock" like on a 1911.

The same is true for my Browning BDM. In fact, if you use the decocker, it drops the hammer to the equivalent position as the CZ75, and not 100% down and in contact with the firing pin. That's the way it's supposed to work.

[Vlad]

Hey, I'm not arguing. However two different ROs have insisted I lower my hammer all the way down. I started a thread in the Rules forum to see if I get some feedback from the folks with the levers of power. Honestly my reading of 8.1.2.2 and 8.1.2.3 combined with the production rules is that the hammer has to be all the way down, which I think is wrong.

Vlad

[rhino]

Agreed!

Hey ... this is a case where the rule really should be examined and adjusted accordingly.

[diehli]

Some sorta language like "hammer completely down or an equivalent fully-decocked state."

[Eye Cutter]

Yes, I agree that it is a valid safety point about not lowering the hammer fully down with a round in the chamber.

But majority of modern DA/SA pistols have firing pin blocks which will "hopefully" prevent an AD even when the hammer is fully down.

Is my assumption correct, gentlemen?

[MoNsTeR]

CZ-75 models with decockers lower to "half-cock". It would seem to me that those with manual-safety models should be allowed to do the same.

[Dead Buff]

I don't trust mech safeties - I trust my brain (I hope.... ). A mech safety can fail at any time.

I put on the safety on my pistol, not because of the rules, but for brain farts...I however do not trust that safety one bit....

The same goes for firing pin blocks, decockers, etc - I'm not gonna drop the hammer with the gun pointed at my foot (fill in what you want blown away... ) trusting that little breakable pin - are you?

Even with a decocker I would still keep a finger, cigarette butt (hey - cigs are good for something...I new it ) or whatever between hammer and FP....

SAFE SHOOTING....

[Eye Cutter]

great point, Dead Buff.

that's why I now find this forum indispensable. lots of new things to learn and be reminded about.

:-)

we need to get feedback from Darth Vader about this issue

[BerettaRacer]

The other problem is that the firing pin blocks are disabled when you have to pull the trigger to release the hammer, greatly increasing the chances of an AD/DQ.

Even the new Beretta Steel I that just came out, which I had hoped to start using, has no decocker and must have the hammer manually dropped. Just not a safe system.

[Skywalker]

You see, manually decocking a gun that's not fitted with a decocking lever, but sports a firing pin safety, is not dangerous per-se.

I mean, on such a gun, pinch hammer between your weak-hand index finger and thumb, index between hammer and firing pin. Pull the trigger and stop the hammer movement as soon as it disengages the sear; the firing pin safety is disabled at this moment, but your index finger between hammer and firing pin will prevent contact.

NOW release trigger, reactivating firing pin safety, and cautiously retract weak-hand index finger, allowing hammer to gently come at rest on half-cock notch.

This way, the possibilities of an AD during decocking are greatly reduced, if not null.

The procedure of lowering the hammer all the way down to contact with firing pin is more prone to AD, IMO, and this should be a valid reason to allow all DA guns, not fitted with a decocking lever, to start from the half-cock notch position.

Not to mention the fact that:

1. Having the hammer at rest on the firing pin on a gun that doesn't have a firing pin safety is intrinsically dangerous.

2. Most decocker-equipped guns will decock the hammer to half-cock notch (CZ and SiG comes to mind first).

[jarcher]

Amuzingly my Sig decocks to a more cocked position then my CZ on the half cock spot.

Sig pistols have on the lower part of the hammer a "safety intercept notch" which prevents the hammer from contacting the firing pin when it is not supposed to. You could not "decock" it any more than that if you tried, unless you tried by hitting it with a sledge hammer. Even then, the firing pin block should prevent discharge.

I am very new to action shooting, but not to guns. I have been in the military (carried a 1911A1 as an MP, cocked and locked), a police officer and an NRA certified pistol instructor. That said, I am amazed - no, stunned - that the rules allow, never mind actually require, people to pull the trigger to decock their pistols! As many others have said this is pretty unsafe.

I'm not trying to be obnoxious or know-it-all, but I am wondering, why would you guys use a pistol that can not be safely decocked without touching the trigger? It's just too easy to make a mistake like that. I don't even want to own such a pistol, except for collecting.

[RogerT]

1. Having the hammer at rest on the firing pin on a gun that doesn't have a firing pin safety is intrinsically dangerous.

I'll have to disagree with you on this one, Sky, as far as CZ goes anyway.

Resting the hammer on the firing pin is NOT in itself dangerous! The firing pin is shorter (1 mm (0.04 in)) than needed to be flush with the face of the slide when the hammer rests on the other end.

It will not be more able to ignite a primer with the hammer down than with the hammer fully cocked and safety applied!

And I seriously doubt that the force of a hammer dropped from the half cock position on CZ will ignite a primer, the firing pin spring is rather strong, but I won't take a bet one this.. .

In my opinion start position with hammer fully down on a CZ pistol is not more unsafe than fully cocked and safety applied. Guns with firing pin safeties are in this aspect safer towards AD due to a sear breakage when gun is holstered, but thats all reallly.

But don't get me wrong here, I would like to start hammer half cocked and safety on beacuse DA pull is lighter and shorter from that position, on my CZ anyway.

[Dead Buff]

And I seriously doubt that the force of a hammer dropped from the half cock position on CZ will ignite a primer, the firing pin spring is rather strong, but I won't take a bet one this.. .

Just for info...we have a guy here who used to carry his CZ 75 A model (pre-firing pin block) on half-cock with one up...

On a specific glorious day when picking up the gun of his living room table he bumped the hammer, the half-cock notch on the hammer sheared off and the gun fired - he still has the hole in the wall to prove it...

From continuos wear on half-cock metal fatigue must have come into play and all that was needed was that little bump...hate to think what could have happened in a less safe scenario - while driving/shopping/etc

[Skywalker]

Roger, the example DB posted is exactly the reason why I said it's intrinsically dangerous.

In rest conditions, the shorter firing is not flush or protruding the breech face hole, yes, but heaven forbid the hammer is bumped, or the gun falls, it might go bang.

I've personally experienced the following happening in a training session (I shoot a SVI Competiotion, thus it was cocked'n'locked), but I've witnessed it happen more than once in competitions.

At beep I fumbled the draw, loosing the (poor) grip I had on the gun, and it fell on the ground muzzle first.

On a gun not equipped with firing pin safety, with hammer at full rest, this would most probably lead to a ... scaring experience and a pair of pants in need of a thorough wash...

[RogerT]

OK, I rest my case.

I recognize the potential of AD trough half cock failures.