Two quick shots on a target

[BoyGlock]

Ive read this topic here but found mixed ideas.

Im learning to quicken my splits (inspite of ideas here not to).

Yesterday as I was testing my red dots and at the same time practicing, I experimented on my rate of fire for close 5y targets.

My usual splits at this distance is .25-.33sec. If I go faster than this I was always afraid to miss. So I always made it a point to wait for the dot to settle on A's before triggering the 2nd shots.

In the middle of my session, I decided to rip the trigger at speed but did my best to see my dot on A's. I didnt wait for it to settle for the second shot.

What I saw was the dot was on its return path to the target as the 2nd shot was released, but clearly saw it if it was in or not of the target.

I kept doing these w/ 3 targets in array and rewarded w/ mostly A hits but always saw where the dot was when the 2nd shot was fired.

My splits went down to 0.18-0.19 secs w/ pretty good hits. Gun was Glock 17 w/ red dot and comp. Trigger at 3#+.

Is this the right way to do it?

Thanks.

[leemoe83]

Uhhh....are you saying that you usually don't fire a shot untill the dot settles back to the exact spot where you fired the first shot? The idea is to shot A's as fast as possible, at 5 yards the A zone is huge, you will get the same points for putting two shots next to each other as you would putting 2 shots 6 in. apart. At 5 yards once the dot is in the A zone squeeze the trigger, slap it, prep it, mash it, whatever. At that distance you can get away with a lot of slop. Now if you trying to shoot two A's at 25 yards that may change. Let's say you can hold a 6" group at 25 yards at the speed you will shoot it, then you will need to see a different sight picture on the target to get 2 A's than you would at 5 yards,maybe you need to squeeze the trigger differently, what you need to see and do to be confident of 2 A's is different. You will need to figure out what you need to see at any given distance and target size to get the hits you want. Then you just have to do it as fast as you can. Know what you need to see, see it, shoot it. Neve think if it as "quick shots", "double tap", "controlled pairs" or any of that crap. It is always one shot at a time, doing what you need to do to shoot the shot you want to shoot.

[BoyGlock]

What I meant was, the decision to pull the trigger came before the dot was in the A zone. While before this, My decision usually comes when the dot is in the A zone already. Now, the time of deciding in this recent experience was instantaneous so I felt some uncertainty on the shot because I am not used to not seeing the dot on target before deciding to shoot, but I am confident that the dot will return to target in time for the actual shot and so I force myself a bit to just pull the trigger, and by the time the actual shot, the dot is already in the A zone. I repeated the exercise so many times until I was sure it was not a fluke.

Also what I meant by a miss is a hit outside of A zone.

What I know about controlled pair or twin tap was a sight pic for each shot. Does it mean a sight pic as the shot is fired or before the shot? I think the decision to fire the second shot is automatic, not really waiting for an acceptable sight pic but anticipating and knowing it will come at the right time for the shot.

Edited September 22, 2012 by BoyGlock

[juan]

yhere is a lapse of time between when the brain says fire and the finger pulls the trigger.

this is timimg, you need to call your shots.

matt burkett has some timing drills that are good.

[Sin-ster]

I would advise Bill Drills. Lots of them.

7 yards, only A's count. Sub-2 shouldn't be difficult to achieve with a dot gun and comp.

Just be sure you're calling the shots, and you'll get a VERY clear idea of what sight pictures you can get away with at that range and pull A's.

Honestly, if you're shooting a comped gun and can't return the dot to the A-zone at 5 yards in the time it takes you to break a second shot (.15-.19), you've got bigger issues than just triggering quickly. I'm hesitant to say that the dot should never leave the A-zone (vertically) at that range, but it should definitely SEEM that way because it returns so promptly.

[BoyGlock]

yhere is a lapse of time between when the brain says fire and the finger pulls the trigger.

this is timimg, you need to call your shots.

I would advise Bill Drills. Lots of them.

7 yards, only A's count. Sub-2 shouldn't be difficult to achieve with a dot gun and comp.

Just be sure you're calling the shots, and you'll get a VERY clear idea of what sight pictures you can get away with at that range and pull A's.

Honestly, if you're shooting a comped gun and can't return the dot to the A-zone at 5 yards in the time it takes you to break a second shot (.15-.19), you've got bigger issues than just triggering quickly. I'm hesitant to say that the dot should never leave the A-zone (vertically) at that range, but it should definitely SEEM that way because it returns so promptly.

Thanks for all your inputs. These made me realize Im doing fine.

Bill drill is a regular fare in my range practice coz Im aware of the importance of timing myself w/ the gun and load I shoot and vice versa.

What surprized me was my capability to shoot at this speed and still hit my target.

Im not so engrossed w/ speed as Ive been in belief that w/ correct technique and constant practice, speed will come.

But in this exercise I say its just half the truth. Or half untrue.

I change it now to: Speed will only come for those who seek and work at it.

I was in .25-.30 splits for several years prior to this (mostly in Std .40) and waited for speed to come.

Had I not forced myself to shoot outside my comfort zone, I will always be in the limbo waiting for the speed to come.

And yes I see the dot milliseconds before the second shot breaks.

It felt the shooting and the dot returning are simultaneously happening, sans the waiting.

I also realize that mastery of a lot of skills is necessary to do this effectively, like precise recoil management, precise index to target at speed, transition fr target to target, etc

Oh, what a sport we have!

[juan]

you have hit the key point

I say the speed will come with time is a flawed statement.

speed will not come with time unless you seek it and practice it.

this is where par time drills are very valueable , you can keep crunching the time down until failure,

you will be surprised how fast you can shoot above your pace now, keep pushing and keep seeking.

you will not know the limits of the possible unless you dive in to the impossible.

[Sac Law Man]

The distance to the target is going to affect your splits. At 5 yards, .18 splits are easy. You can only shoot as fast as you can see, and at 5 yards, you really dont need to see to make fast, accurate hits. Move back to 15-20 yards and things change. I do a drill I got from Mike Seeklanders book. The drill is shot stationary and you can use a shooting box or stick as your position. Place one target (T1) downrange and slightly to the left at 10-12 yards, another target directly in front of you at 3-5 yards (T2) and a third (T3), downrange and to the right at 15-20 yards. At the buzzer, engage the targets left to right with 2 rounds each. What youre working on is transitions at different distances, driving the gun from T1 to T2, and your splits. Each target requires a little different focus. For me, I pay the most attention to the splits on T2 and T3, this is where I want to see improvement, because I know I can get lucky once in a while and make two accurate fast hits without a good sight pic/alignment, but the consistency wont be there, so I really need to watch the sights and have good follow through. Try it, its a good drill..

Edited September 23, 2012 by Sac Law Man

[BoyGlock]

Thanks, I will.

[jimbullet]

Sin Ster,

Im curious in iron sights for a bill drill you have described, what would be a likely acceptable time? I would imagine it would be above the 2's as red dot and comped guns would likely achieve it faster?

[Sin-ster]

Sin Ster,

Im curious in iron sights for a bill drill you have described, what would be a likely acceptable time? I would imagine it would be above the 2's as red dot and comped guns would likely achieve it faster?

I guess I'll answer that like I've seen it done in several books written by World Champs and uber-studs...

Master Class should be sub-2, all A's-- 9 times out of 10.

Based on that, you can infer the spread across the other Classes. In his FNS video, Sevigny shoots it in like 1.68... on an 8" plate, which for me, would be tougher than a 6" x 12" A-zone. (I get veritcal stringing still to some degree.)

More than anything, a fast Bill Drill is about the draw. Dave gets out of the holster in .8-ish in the same video, for a hit on that plate. I've seen Manny do it in .65 (and not be happy) at the same range on an IPSC Metric. I'm consistent (~95% A's) at 1.1-1.15 at that range, and JUST break 2. (My draw is not terribly strong, though...)

If you do the math, for the most part we're pulling the trigger at the same speed. Shot-to-shots are .15-.18; even if you're pulling .2's, it's only 1 second worth of time for the 5 splits-- so a sub-1 draw would have you under 2.

I would say at the upper B-class and higher levels, there's only a nominal advantage to the Drill with a dot gun-- other than those shooting Production, who may have a longer/heavier trigger (which is still pretty nominal thanks to the reduced muzzle flip of shooting Minor). Even if you're cheating the sights (i.e. not seeing/calling the shots), your NPA, index and recoil management are such that you can shoot the A's @ 7 yards without a problem. If you moved the target to 10 yards and beyond, the Open guns would begin to gain an edge. I trigger A's at about .18-.2 at 10, and need 1.25 to guarantee an A from the holster-- it's hard for me to break 2 there consistently.

Bear in mind that while this is considered a "skills test", it's more useful IMO as a diagnostic and practice drill. The draw aside, you can learn a lot about a wide range of issues in your shooting. And I've only ever put 6 consecutive hits on a single target 3 or 4 stages in my 2-year USPSA stint to this point-- all of which were on targets past 7 yards. (20, 15, 10...)

[BoyGlock]

My first serious try for speed on Bill drill yesterday netted my best run 2.56s all As on IPSC classic/turtle target fr 7y. That was 1.39draw, 4 splits @ .23, 1 @ .25. Gun G17 w/ SJC 11-port comp, 4moa Micro, 3#5oz trigger, major 9mm ammo.

Its obvious I have quite a lot of work ahead in order to attain your sub 2s par. But Im optimistic, w. dedication and deligence it can be done.

I noticed too that my .18-.19 splits for 2 shots were not carried over to the drill. Any idea why?

Edited September 24, 2012 by BoyGlock

[HoMiE]

Quit worrying what the time of your split is, focus more on knowing that you shot an A on the target. Your not trying to shot a group at 7 yards so I suspect your still waiting for the dot to settle and be perfectly still. Don't worry about that. At 7 yards you should be able to just pull trigger and watch the dot just dance on the target, who cares if it goes up into C zone casue you know as your pulling trigger dot is coming back down and by the time it fires it was an A, becasue that is where you saw the dot lift off the target. Shooting an open gun, if your waiting for the stop to stop your shooting too slow in my opinion. You only need to know where the dot lifted from in order to call your shot and know it was an A zone hit. If you want a sub 1 second draw, work on your npa and know how you have to index on a target to get that first A hit. I suspect if you video yourself, your drawing the gun, looking for dot, verifying dot in A zone then pulling trigger. then for every subsequent shot your pausing slightly to watch dot stop and then pull trigger again. Dryfire your draw and work down till you can get a sub 1 second par time going. Prep the trigger and get the shot ready so that when you know the first shot is going to be there it is and your watching the dot as you push the gun out to target. Once you know that first shot is an A everytime its easy just pulling the trigger as fast as you can and watching that dot bounce and lift from the A zone. Then a sub 2 second bill drill is nothing, go work on other stuff and try to get all your other shots so that your transitions are as fast as your splits. I'll throw in one tip for doing fast bill drills, dont ride the trigger, as soon as gun fires, let your finger off trigger, prep it and get ready for next shot. And trying to go fast isnt the most productive for shooting fast. When your relaxed and shoot with your eyes, you cant shoot any faster than that.

[Sin-ster]

My first serious try for speed on Bill drill yesterday netted my best run 2.56s all As on IPSC classic/turtle target fr 7y. That was 1.39draw, 4 splits @ .23, 1 @ .25. Gun G17 w/ SJC 11-port comp, 4moa Micro, 3#5oz trigger, major 9mm ammo.

Its obvious I have quite a lot of work ahead in order to attain your sub 2s par. But Im optimistic, w. dedication and deligence it can be done.

I noticed too that my .18-.19 splits for 2 shots were not carried over to the drill. Any idea why?

Homie gave some fabulous advice.

I would agree with his assessment of "shooting the dot too slow if you're letting it stop", which is not a common issue with iron sights. Simply put, at those speeds, the average (trained) eye will not be able to perceive a stop in perfect alignment with iron sights; with a dot gun, you always know exactly how much your POA is still moving around.

The terminology is "opening up your level of visual patience", or basically accepting a less perfect sight picture.

Try this. Shoot a Bill Drill into the berm/backstop without any concern for where the rounds are hitting. Did your splits drop back down to the .18-.19 range?

Homie also hit a key point in triggering quickly (and accurately). When you TRY to put 6 rounds into an A-zone quickly, your natural reaction will probably be to bear down on the gun with both hands and both arms. The more tension you have (especially on your strong side and in your strong hand), the more difficult it will be to trip the striker on your Glock at speed-- you lose dexterity when you grip the gun harder. The Bill Drill is a good way of finding that happy medium, where your strong hand is still providing sufficient leverage to return the sights quickly to alignment but NOT robbing your finger of touch and speed. As you play with it, you'll probably wind up stringing shots high when you first slacken your strong hand grip. It takes a lot of work, but you'll eventually figure out the proper amount of grip and then be able to replicate it in practice over and over until it becomes subconscious.

In matches, most folks can't duplicate the times (consistently) that they achieve in practice. My personal belief is that the major contributing factor to this is tension. My fastest splits, best draws and blazing mag changes all come when I'm super-relaxed, and standing at the start position waiting on the buzzer feels VASTLY different than waiting on my personal timer while I'm alone at a practice session in the middle of no where. Extra tension can also cause the sights to track a little funky, so if you really are "in the visual zone" while shooting a match, your splits will slow down based upon the added time it takes to get an acceptable sight picture as well.

The good thing is that the same tension/adrenaline will have you moving faster, seeing better and (as you settle in) shooting to your peak performance during the match as well. Once you learn to control it some, it'll be your best friend.

[BoyGlock]

Gents, I agree and appreciate your inputs.

As of now they are all over me and most are way above my head.

Just this morning I dry fired for an hour, and one thing I learned in my draw was my NPA was a bit off and so my dot kept on aligning a bit left of target. I moved my left foot a few inches forward and it cured the prob. Now Im reading here how my NPA could make or break an effecient draw. Wow, thanks.

I feel tense and forced, on the edge as I am not used to this. As you said, my focus maybe misplaced.

Im confident that w/ time and lots of work I will stabilize and find my path to better shooting.