Loading Troubles with 1100

[wsimpso1]

Hi,

M1100 has given me a nasty little surprise while stuffing shells into it: You can get the shell past the front edge of the shell carrier without engaging the feed latch, and when the shell carrier drops down, the shell is driven back between the carrier and the bottom of the action bars, quite effectively locking up the gun. I have resisted the urge to force it open and just dropped the fire control assembly pins to clear it. I was having a good time in the local 3 Gun match until then...

Does anybody know how this is properly fixed?

In examining the gun, I found that the front edge of the feed latch is about the thickness of the shell rim forward of the front edge of the carrier. Is this normal? It strikes me that either the feed latch is too far forward or the carrier is too far aft. I can weld the carrier to extend it or grind the feed latch or replace the feedlatch with a different part, whatever is the right ay to solve the problem, but I would rather know what change is right instead of guessing ...

Funny thing, I worked for Remington R&D in Ilion NY 23-24 years ago, and I got to know the workings pretty well, but I never came across this info, and now I am wishing that I had... Anyway, any help you guys can offer will be a big help to me.

Billski

[rhino]

I don't know how to fix it, but it seems to happen to new Competition Masters more often than plain jane 1100s.

[wsimpso1]

Mine is an older slug gun with rifle sights and a newer plastic stock. I disassembled, cleaned and lubed everything, and added a long magazine tube. I looked at my 870 and it has the same carrier to feed latch relationship, so I suspect that the parts are designed to be that way.

It still strikes me that the right way to do this would be to insure that the feed latch has the shell before it the carrier can drop and trap the shell...

Billski

[Patrick Sweeney]

Yea, on the reload, you either (speedloader) have to make sure you stuff the loader handle into the magazine tube, or (limited) roll your thumbtip into the mag tube.

Both ensure the rim gets past the shell stop. You worked for Remmie, and you didn't filch all the manuals, lab notes, amorers reminders and christmas party memos you could lay hands on? Shame on you!

[AH6IP]

One thing you can do to make loading easier is to shorten the carrier by about a 1/4", which allows you to stuff those shells in without catching the thumb, ensuring that the shell catches on the shell latch. Doing this mod will not change of the mechanics of the trigger/loading group.

[EricW]

I had my loading port cut forward. I also had a mag follower custom cut that doesn't bind in the tube. Those two fixes, plus DAYS of practice really cut down on that problem for me.

I'm really tempted to make some followers out of Delrin and see how that improves things.

[wsimpso1]

Well, thanks for the commentary.

When I left Ilion, it was a transfer to Bridgeport, and the transition was pretty quick. I did make sure that I was well equipped for information on rifles. Remington was my first job out of engineering school, and I only worked about 19 months in Ilion. They needed somebody in Connecticut, and I took it. They really wanted to set up a product engineering group at Lonoke and us northerners did not want to go. They were closing up Bridgeport in 1984 and moved everybody to Ilion, hoping to make some synergy between the ammo guys and the gun guys work. Six months later they were moving the ammo guys to Arkansas, and they were all calling me an "old sage". I saw it coming, and left the company for graduate school in Michigan instead of moving back to Ilion.

Life has been good in Michigan, and my shooting friends all marvel how I could leave an engineering job with a gun maker. Let's put it this way - At that time, Remington was a shotgun and shotshell maker who did a little bit of rifle and brass cased ammo. This recently acquired 1100 is my first shotgun, and the last time I fired a shotgun before last week was, um, 1983 on a field test... Let me tell you, it was a job, much like every other engineering job I have ever done. And any new feature or fix that was wanted that cost more than $0.02 was too expensive. As a shooter, it was killing my interest in a terrific hobby.

Anyway, I am going to pick up Pat Sweeny's book, investigate the 3" shell carrier, and think about solving this problem with technique vs modifying the carrier to prevent both the malf and the bite... I sure don't think that I want to start playing with the relationship between the latches.

Thanks again, Billski

[wsimpso1]

More news, The customer service folks at Remington think that the feed latch is more likely to be the source of the problem, and they persisted even when I pointed out that it does not malfunction when shooting, it fails while loading... So, I shall look over the latches for proper shape, etc.

The more that I think about it, perhaps just training to stuff shells home would be better than modifying the shotgun, although brazing a little extension on the carrier looks to be fun.

I am thinking about the 3" Carrier Assembly too (Brownell's catalog says 12, 12 Mag, 12 3" Mag, part number 767-268-750). What are the differences between the issued part and the new one? What is it supposed to do for us? If it is longer, it can preclude this failure, but it seems to come at the price of a more risk of carrier bite. Do I have that right? Does it do anything else for the issues here?

Billski

[EricW]

If you're shooting 3 gun, modify your shotgun. You're going to go nowhere in a hurry with a stock 1100. Been there. Done that. Got the t-shirt.

If you want to go it alone, more power to you. If you don't, JP, Benny, Shawn Carlock, and others all know how to make the 1100 loadable. All solutions involve the EZ loader.

If nothing else, you'll need to have your interceptor latch fixed to eliminate the clip that always breaks and tubes your match mid-stage. Shawn has a rock-solid fix for that. (Not a job for someone w/o a mill or a drill press. It involves drilling the receiver.)

[wsimpso1]

Pat Sweeney! Thank you for writing that book! It arrived yesterday and I have already read a bunch of it - the sections on the 870, 1100, and practical shooting! Well worth the price I paid! I recommend it heartily. I think that I recognize the locations for some of the range photos too...

I have already gone through and dehorned parts, smoothed the entrance to the mag, etc.

I have a 3" shell carrier on order, even though I have not had a problem (yet) with the gun locking open while a shell lays waiting on the carrier. I do not seem to have any problems with a mis-timed carrier lift or improper upper and lower stop points on the carrier.

Now back to the trapped shell routine, you noted that Remington has fixed (sort-of)the 870 with the flex tab. For the 1100, we can either force it open or fire it to clear the gun, neither of which is prefereable to just not having this type of problem in the first place. I wish they had cured it back at root cause...

So, I am still thinking in terms of brazing a little extension on the carrier, and then reshaping it to preclude the trapped shell. This just HAS to have been tried in the past... What are the pitfalls and down sides to what seems to be an obvious fix? Carrier bite maybe?

And if it was that easy, I have to wonder why the folks at Ilion did not fix it long ago. I know that the engineers I worked with there would have wanted to, but the bean-counters... Of course, I think that I know why Remington would not change it:

It is not a "BIG" problem;

It would require both tooling money and increase piece cost;

It might not retrofit somewhere in the past;

They might have to supply one and its installation to everyone who wanted one all of the way back to the first one built in 1961;

Lawsuit exposure for anyone hurt or killed by a bad guy while he had an "old style" 870 or 1100 in his hands, claiming its "defects" resulted in the loss, even if reloading the gun was not even involved.

Oh, sorry, my cynicism of corporate decision making and our litiginous society are showing.

Anyway, I know that the standard advice is shove your thumb into the mag tube, but I still would like to beat this at root cause, and I am not adverse to a bit of brazing and shaping to do it, but I would like to know what others have found out when they did the same thing. Somebody HAS to have done this before... How about it folks?

Second issue - I have the tools to do something about the rather fragile looking attachment of the intercepter latch, but I need to know what the fix is. Anybody willing to part with the info? Somebody selling a part to fit in there? I appreciate the advice any of you have.

Billski

[EricW]

Anyway, I know that the standard advice is shove your thumb into the mag tube, but I still would like to beat this at root cause, and I am not adverse to a bit of brazing and shaping to do it, but I would like to know what others have found out when they did the same thing. Somebody HAS to have done this before... How about it folks?

Second issue - I have the tools to do something about the rather fragile looking attachment of the intercepter latch, but I need to know what the fix is. Anybody willing to part with the info? Somebody selling a part to fit in there? I appreciate the advice any of you have.

Billski

First issue:

The "fix" for the shell on the carrier is to open up your loading port by milling the receiver. This really reduces the need to put your thumb all the way into the loading port. I'll try to post a picture of what was done to mine. The field expedient solution to having a shell trapped on the carrier is to shoot the gun, then complete the reload.

I know that's not what your asking for and generally not what anybody wants to hear, but I've had the chance to compare loading an 1100 before and after having the receiver opened up and there's just no comparison.

Interceptor Latch:

The fix for the interceptor latch is to eliminate the clip and boss that it hinges on. Shawn Carlock (www.defensiveedge.net) has the fix for it. He drills out the boss then uses a custom-made bushing and allen head screw to hold the interceptor latch. It's as close to bomb-proof as you can get on an 1100. You'll need a mill and/or a drill fixture to do the mod. As of now, Shawn doesn't sell the fixtures or parts for others to do the mod. (He really needs to though.)

[EricW]

Here's one way to fix the loading issues on an 1100. This work was done by Shawn Carlock at Defensive Edge.

Cut back and enlarged loading port. Note angled entry.

The fix for the interceptor latch clip. Boss drilled out and replaced with screw and bushing shown above.

The external screw that holds the new interceptor latch bushing in place.

[rhino]

Very interesting ...

In addition to fixing reliability problems, does the enlarged port minimize "thumb pinch" when you shuck a shell in there?

[ErikW]

Also note the chop-job on the Easyloader itself.

[Phil Dunlop]

my easyloader is 3/4" shorter than that now, and at last it works

[wsimpso1]

Thanks for the responses.

Eric W - Now those photos provide useful info! Thanks for posting them!

I thought that I had removed some metal from the reciever around the mag tube on my gun, but I am just a piker compared to you. The cut down length on the DMW feed ramp is something that I shall have to check out too.

From your description, I had already concieved of using a flat head allen screw to capture a bushing and cut the reciever for threads to keep the outside flush. I can see that they don't even bother with that, just put a button head allen screw through from the outside, then the bushing on the inside can be beefy. Very nice looking installation too.

If Shawn Carlock sold the parts for $20, I'd buy them. Instead, I guess that I shall beg some lathe time and a little bit of stainless from a buddy, and then buy some fine thread screws from J&L. I assume that you LocTite it all in.

Thanks again for all of the help.

Billski

[EricW]

... does the enlarged port minimize "thumb pinch" when you shuck a shell in there?

Yes.

[EricW]

If Shawn Carlock sold the parts for $20, I'd buy them. Instead, I guess that I shall beg some lathe time and a little bit of stainless from a buddy, and then buy some fine thread screws from J&L. I assume that you LocTite it all in.

Thanks again for all of the help.

Billski

Every time I drop by the shop, I browbeat Shawn over manufacturing those things. I'll do it again once he's back from vacation.

And yes, Loctite is your friend when you put that bushing in. Shawn would have to tell you whether you use red or blue.

The 1100's feedpath is so crappily designed, I don't even know how people even load that gun as stock from the factory. Showing up to a match with a stock Competition Master is pretty much a 10 to 15 second penalty right out of the chute. If you don't do something radical to the gun's feedpath, pretty soon you won't even be in the game.

(The bar for Shotgun reloading is about to go up here in a couple weeks. I think there will be an article in the next FS about it.)

[rhino]

I think shortening the EZ loader is a good thing, even for guns intended for more "serious" use, as it makes it less likely to snag.

[wsimpso1]

Time to report on results...

I will describe things relative to the gun, with the sights being up, trigger group down and muzzle end being forward...

I opened up the forward edge of the bottom opening in the reciever, deburred it and funnel shaped the ramp into the magazine, all on the bottom edge of the tube. Other than breaking sharp corners on the top edge, I did not touch the top edge of the mag.

I checked for fit frequently as I did this, and realized two things:

First, The interceptor latch had a sharp corner and a step where the rim of the shell being loaded could catch. I filed that away for later, and stayed away from that part.

Second, As the shell rim slides past the intercepter latch, the reciever just forward of the magazine tube interferes witht he rim. This appeared to be what was driving the shell rim into contact with intercepter latch, and it happens just as the shell clears the carrier, and before it clears the feed latch!

Hmmm, so I carefully dehorned the back side of the intercepter latch and relieved the little bump in the reciever until the shells go in without snagging... At no time did I change the front side of either latch, nor did I reshape any surfaces on the top end of the magazine tube entry. Too much fear over messing with feeding. It seems to work nicely, is easily loaded, and yet the latches cleanly stop and feed shells. In practicing with it, I also found that the DMW Ezloader was indeed too long, so trimmed it back a half inch and deburred/dehorned it. Slick!

Since I worked on it on Friday night and Saturday afternoon and the 3-G at Livingston was Sunday, I violated my rules about testing prior to going to a match. Going to have to trust that dry loading and dry feeding worked well. At the match it worked cleanly and loaded easily for me in three stages. Another shooter's borrowed gun choked, so he shot mine for two stages and he complimented me on how easily it loaded compared to every other shotgun he had ever fussed with... I begin to wonder if the factorys should pay more attention to this issue.

Now we get to see how well it lasts. Two more 3-Gun matches this fall... I will install a bolted in intercepter latch pivot, the 3" carrier, reciever sight, and fiber optic front sight over the winter, and report on those too. In any event, Pat Sweeney's book and Eric W's comments have so far pointed me at the issues and helped me find the solutions. Let's see where the issues go next.

Thanks again to Pat Sweeney and Eric W!

Billski

[Mike Bell]

bumping this up