Would you call this a procedural?

[ducati]

Shooting a match yesterday a shooter on my squad was behind cover, his gun has the slide locked back. Drops the empty mag on the ground, goes to retrieve a full mag and in his haste the full mag goes flying 4ft behind him. He then grabs another mag to finish the stage. Should he have left cover to retrive the full mag? Is this the proper call? I just consider this a motor skill malfunction.

[Mayonaise]

I wouldn't call a procedural. If he needs ammo later on in the string and pulls a third mag from a pocket then I would gig him.

[hopalong]

No Procedural as you are exposing yourself with an unloaded gun and besides the shooter has already wasted time by dropping it anyway, no need to penalize someone twice for the same thing.

If he had done it on purpose hoping to get some kind of advantage of shooting the course of fire out of course discription, yes and maybe a FTD. but as far as your discription goes see the above.

Hopalong

[short_round]

If he needs ammo later on in the string and pulls a third mag from a pocket then I would gig him.

Why would it matter that he pulled a third mag from his pocket?

[hopalong]

let me add a little for clarification,

No Procedural, if he goes on and shoots with the other mag in his magholder, if he goes after the dropped mag and exposes himself with an unloaded gun then if he does not retreat back to cover he then get the Procedural.

Hopalong

[hopalong]

Short Round

You are only allowed one mag in the gun and two on the side, no more from anywhere else, except when topping off at the begining of a course of Fire.

HOP

[Mark Perez]

No PE from me.

It's a good demonstration of why you should carry 2 vs. 1 mag on the belt.

[short_round]

Short Round

You are only allowed one mag in the gun and two on the side, no more from anywhere else, except when topping off at the begining of a course of Fire.

HOP

Thanks! I'm going to have to remember that.

[Practical Use]

Rule 17, Page 32: "Courses of fire may require that while firing a stage, no loaded ammunition carriers ...may be left behind..."

Accordingly, the action may or may not result in a procedural.

At my "home club" we apply a general rule that no rounds may be left behind, with the exception that after a tactical reload, if a valid effort is made to stow the magazine, no penalty.

Thus, I would have applied the penalty at our club.

[Mark Perez]

from the IDPA Club Affiliation Information at the back section of the LGB:

ASSISTING THE SHOOTER

Every effort should be made to assist the shooter in having a safe and enjoyable match. It is the goal of the safety officer to thoroughly explain the course-of-fire, answer questions, instruct the shooter on safety, give the benefit of the doubt on any questionable scoring question or ruling and do anything possible to assist the shooter during the match. Issuing a procedural penalty and/or disqualification should be the last thing a good IDPA SO would want to do. The range NAZI mentality of us (SOs) against them (shooters) is NOT welcome in IDPA and will NOT be tolerated.

emphasis is mine.

btw - there is no indication that the shooter in question went anywhere , only that he finished the stage using another mag.

[Ted Murphy]

You're allowed to have a magazine in your pocket for charging purposes. While the rule book does not specifically say you cannot draw it, I would never gig anyone who was so out of ammo they had to use it.

No procedural on the whoopsie on the magazine either.

[geezer-lock]

The section of the LGB that addresses "Scoring Issues" has this nugget that specifically addresses this situation:

"Many contestants have argued that “rule 17” (tac-loads) does not state that

they can’t leave loaded loose rounds behind. As long as there are no loaded

rounds in the loader/moon clip they do not incur a procedural penalty. Be

advised and advise shooters to the fact that ‘if you leave any loaded rounds

behind during a tac-reload, you get 3.0 added’. Magazines, speedloaders or

loaded rounds dropped due to a clearance/malfunction will not be so ruled."

geezer

[John Forsyth]

Another vote for no procedural. I do not imagine the shooter gained any advantage by tossing his magazine, and immediately saying some explecative deleted, before grabbing another mag.

[Mayonaise]

You're allowed to have a magazine in your pocket for charging purposes. While the rule book does not specifically say you cannot draw it, I would never gig anyone who was so out of ammo they had to use it.

No procedural on the whoopsie on the magazine either.

So out of ammo that he left the bobbled mag on the ground and had to resort to a stripper mag? Technically, I believe that would earn a procedural but if they've blown so man hits that they are into a third mag on a 18 round string I agree that it would be hard to kick them while they are already down.

[vincent]

From "Competition Rules":

17. TACTICAL LOAD: Courses of fire may require that while firing a stage, no loaded ammunition carriers (i.e. magazines, speedloaders) may be left behind if the shooter moves to another firing position (exception: when clearing a firearm malfunction). The shooter’s firearm will be considered LOADED when the fresh magazine is seated or revolver cylinder is closed. Failure to do so will result in a three (3) second procedural penalty per infraction. To be in the “spirit” of the stage, the shooter must retain the magazine in one of the following ways PRIOR to the firing of the first shot after a tactical load: pants pocket, vest pocket, jacket pocket, waistband or magazine pouch. Using specially designed pockets, shirt pockets or holding the magazine in the hand or teeth is NOT permitted.

From "Scoring Issues":

Many contestants have argued that “rule 17” (tac-loads) does not state that they can’t leave loaded loose rounds behind. As long as there are no loaded rounds in the loader/moon clip they do not incur a procedural penalty. Be advised and advise shooters to the fact that ‘if you leave any loaded rounds behind during a tac-reload, you get 3.0 added’. Magazines, speedloaders or loaded rounds dropped due to a clearance/malfunction will not be so ruled.

Both of these sections relate to Tactical Loads (which encompasses Tactical Reloads and Reloads with Retention). Rule 17 specifies what cannot be left behind as "loaded ammunition carriers" and the Scoring Issues section adds additional verbage to include "loose rounds" with an emphasis on revolver shooters. Loose rounds during a tactical reload is a real issue for non-moonclip revolver shooters who must perform a tactical reload by dumping both the loaded and unloaded rounds into their hand and then pocketing the whole mess. During this process all of the loaded loose rounds must be retained. Rounds dropped while clearning a firearm malfunction are not penalized.

Now a lot of folks have taken these rules out of context and started saying that no rounds loaded ammunition carriers can be dropped ever during a course of fire. I can't find support for this in the rulebook. So I don't see anything wrong with what the shooter did on this front.

Trying to gain a competitive advantage by doing something to circumvent the spirit or rationale of the stage is covered by the Failure To Do Right penalty. It doesn't sound like the shooter deserved an FTDR either.

Long story short, in my opinion the shooter should not receive a penalty for the situation described. Although some teasing may be in order for throwing mags around.

Of course unless I'm the SO at the stage then my opinion doesn't mean diddly.

[Ted Murphy]

The rules do not say you cannot use the top off mag in a pinch.

Furthermore, I think the shooter's desire to stay in the fight and continue on with the last magazine despite a rather bad run of luck is within both the spirit and principle of Defensive Pistol Shooting and has earned the shooter a small atta-boy (despite the embarrasing lack of marksmanship skills) instead of a procedural.

Ted

[geezer-lock]

The rules do not say you cannot use the top off mag in a pinch.

Ted

The rules do state the following (emphasis added):

"One additional magazine may be carried on the person for “charging” purposes only."

That is pretty clear to me. I use a "barney" mag (with only one round) to be certain that the first round was chambered without having to pinch the pistol open.

Be safe, have fun...shoot to win

geezer

[Practical Use]

"The rules do not say....."

That sounds like IPSC. Read the entire rule book in context - what is the spirit of the game - follow IDPA principals.

[vincent]

"The rules do not say....."

That sounds like IPSC. Read the entire rule book in context - what is the spirit of the game - follow IDPA principals.

I agree that you need to read the entire rulebook, but only because there is important information throughout. I don't agree that following the priciples of IDPA is good enough on it's own.

That reminds me of the infamous quote at a recent Nationals that "the rules are just guidelines". What a crock! IDPA is a sport. The sport has rules. These rules are in the rulebook.

Does the umpire follow the "principles of baseball" or the rulebook?

[Practical Use]

"That reminds me of the infamous quote at a recent Nationals that "the rules are just guidelines". What a crock! IDPA is a sport. The sport has rules. These rules are in the rulebook."

Thus, if it is not prohibited in the rule book, I can do it?????

Then what is the point of a failure to do right???

Thus, your statement is not completely accurate.

Not everything is listed in the rule book.

[vincent]

With the additional clarification, I see your point. For example, the conditions in which an FTDR is given are described but not detailed. Not everything in the rulebook is setup as an inclusive list of can and can't do's. Agreed.

What I was referring to are the folks that think that you don't have to follow the written rules as long as you are "in the spirit of the sport". This is where I thought you were going. My bad.

[Practical Use]

Vincent,

I agree, we need to follow the rules to the extent that they exist. The difficulty is that as we agree, they do not cover all situations. The problem, as I see it, is that given any three shooters, they have at least four opinions on any given subject!

Regards,

Ed

[Ted Murphy]

The rules do not say you cannot use the top off mag in a pinch. 

Ted

The rules do state the following (emphasis added):

"One additional magazine may be carried on the person for “charging” purposes only."

That is pretty clear to me. I use a "barney" mag (with only one round) to be certain that the first round was chambered without having to pinch the pistol open.

Be safe, have fun...shoot to win

geezer

well you got me on that one, I forgot about the "only" part.

Still, if someone wants to continue on and finish his last mag in a last-ditch effort to actually neutralize all the targets, it shouldn't be a procedural. As it is, I've never seen someone need to go this far, even with the dropped magazine he would still have quite a few rounds for his gun. It would have to be a mother of a large course to need all that ammo. (or I guess he would have to be THAT bad)

Ted