Dead Buff Posted August 2, 2004 Share Posted August 2, 2004 After reading through various threads, the webpage of TGO and BE (plus some others) I have not found any answers.... 4-6 months ago I was a great shot. No misses/PT's, 3-5 C's and 2-3 D's at a shoot with for me quite respectible times. Now I shoot 2-4 Misses/PT's and only about half A's of total hits in about the same time. It all started after thinking about what I'm doing and trying to improve. I dryfire some (not enough yet) and that goes real good. However, once I load the gun I shoot mostly low, can't seem to shoot good groups any more (the gun is OK - have let others test it and my loads....), etc... I seem to grip the gun too tight and I think I slap the trigger although I am quite sure I only use my finger (not whole hand) on the trigger. I'm trying to realy watch the front sight. I have lost quite some confidence, which I assume only to come back once I shoot beter again. Please help me get back to basics and a level from where I can improve... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rhino Posted August 2, 2004 Share Posted August 2, 2004 DB ... I'm having exactly the same problem with shooting low again. I hope you don't mind if I take some of the advice too! (there should be plenty for both of us). I don't think I am scoring my hits and letting the gun drop as much as I have in the past, but I think I may be anticipating recoil again and pushing down too much. I may also be milking the grip. It apparently gets worse when I am tired. It's weird how I can go for a while with good marksmanship, then it goes bad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dead Buff Posted August 2, 2004 Author Share Posted August 2, 2004 Sure, hop on - lets hope we get what we are looking for... It gets worse the more I try Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rhino Posted August 2, 2004 Share Posted August 2, 2004 It gets worse the more I try That's the ugliest part of all of this! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jake Di Vita Posted August 2, 2004 Share Posted August 2, 2004 OK, your hits are suffering...Do you call each and every A, B, C, D, and Mike you shoot? If not, there is your problem. I'm not quite sure gripping the gun hard would be a source of your problem as I now grip it as hard as I can and it works well for me. My advice. Take it easy at the next match. Call all your shots, shoot a clean match, don't even think about the time just shoot to your ability and see what happens. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rhino Posted August 2, 2004 Share Posted August 2, 2004 OK, your hits are suffering...Do you call each and every A, B, C, D, and Mike you shoot? If not, there is your problem. Not always, but even when I do call the shot, it's happening. It was especially bad on the plates yesterday. I was going so far (during practice) that I was pinning the trigger and getting the second sight picture before I released the trigger, and I was still hitting low. I'm not quite sure gripping the gun hard would be a source of your problem as I now grip it as hard as I can and it works well for me. Gripping hard is not a problem as long 1) it is consistent and 2) the trigger finger can stroke the trigger without moving the rest of the grip. I think my grip tension is changing and I an essentially re-gripping multiple times during a shot. You can see it happen in dry fire if you try it on purpose ... the muzzle will go down and left (for a righty). My advice. Take it easy at the next match. Call all your shots, shoot a clean match, don't even think about the time just shoot to your ability and see what happens. That's excellent advice. It's what I've been trying to do, and it just keeps getting worse! Oy! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dead Buff Posted August 2, 2004 Author Share Posted August 2, 2004 Yep - I've even tried to slow down and that realy got me nervous..... I think I call my shots - I'm sure they are there and then I see dust underneath the plate or see a hole low in the C/D area - often not even centred. I am thinking 'bout just shooting some bull's eye targets to get accuracy back.... And I want to sort this within 2 weeks - next national comming up - talk about pressure..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted August 2, 2004 Share Posted August 2, 2004 (edited) If your gun isn't broken...it is impossible to miss when the sights are properly alinged and on target as the bullet leaves the barrel. There is no thinking you are calling. Either the hits are where you called or they aren't. This is pretty black and white. If they aren't there...you didn't call the shot. Here need to be the goals: 1. Never break the shot unless the sights are aligned in thecenter of the target area. (visual patience) 2. See the front sight lift out of the notch. (follow through) Don't worry about time. Don't look to the target to see where the bullet hit. (You will know where the bullet hit before it gets there if you read the sights and called the shot.) Repeat for each and every shot. Edited August 2, 2004 by Flexmoney Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dead Buff Posted August 2, 2004 Author Share Posted August 2, 2004 Ok - that will be my mission in 0.5 hours... Now, what should a 2 handed grip be like? 40:60 strong vs weak, finger forward, thumb on safety is what I try to do now.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tightloop Posted August 2, 2004 Share Posted August 2, 2004 There are so many really good shootes on the forum that it puts additional pressure on you to improve...however, you have to understand and be able to have complete control over the basics prior to gaining speed...to do otherwise is detrimental to progress in the long haul... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jake Di Vita Posted August 2, 2004 Share Posted August 2, 2004 I've heard countless different versions of what the strength in strong hand vs. weak hand should be. My answer: Just grip it and rip it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eric nielsen Posted August 2, 2004 Share Posted August 2, 2004 http://www.brianenos.com/pages/words.html#expanded Many new-to-ipsc shooters start to lose Fundamental #3 - Hold the gun [steady] in the center of the target till the bullet has left the barrel. The first few weeks that many ppl practice ipsc, they start to rush. Rushing creates new subconscious responses. It gets really frustrating when their eyes are wandering to the next task, and they don't even see the gun move as the shot is going off. See the sights lift, mentally recall the flash-bang-gunlift sequence, even in dryfire. http://www.robleatham.com/Rob%20Leatham%20...the%20range.htm Third paragraph relates to your situation. Read the whole thing & good luck. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
short_round Posted August 2, 2004 Share Posted August 2, 2004 Practice shooting groups. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted August 2, 2004 Share Posted August 2, 2004 On Matt Burkett's website, he cover "grip & stance" in the Shooting tips section. http://www.mattburkett.com/catindx1.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jnshapiro Posted August 2, 2004 Share Posted August 2, 2004 One more thing that I'd like to add. There is no faster or slower, there is only the speed at which you acquire your sights. Get your sights on target and keep them there while you pull the trigger. Watch the front sight rise on recoil, eyes to next target and repeat. While this isn't the method desired for shooting fast (read the awareness stuff in BE's book for a better explanation) it should get you back on track. Remember, there is no faster or slower, only the speed at which you acquire your sights on target. Joel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron Ankeny Posted August 2, 2004 Share Posted August 2, 2004 In my experience, what makes IPSC soooo much different from Bullseye, Action Pistol, and PPC is the big brown target and the timer. The big target leads to seeing brown and letting it rip, (visual impatience, not picking a spot, unaccetable sight picture, and so on) and the timer imparts a sense of urgency that can lead to some pretty crappy fire control. The faster we go, the more apt we are to lose sight of the fundamentals and our technique erodes rapidly. I don't want to sound glib, but most of the poor hits that I see in IPSC are caused by people just jerking the crap out of the trigger. I am guilty of that myself. We all preach on seeing what we need to see to make the shot, then calling the shot, but what about fire control? If you don't break the shot without totally screwing the the relationship of the bore to the target all the visual stuff has little value. Short Round has some good advice, shoot groups. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted August 2, 2004 Share Posted August 2, 2004 Ron, I am glad you brought up fire control. I wanted to go back and add that into my post, but didn't. Rhino, that may be where you are? A shooter ought to be able to see the sights going off target...if thier vision is open to that...as the bullet leaves the barrel. I'd like to think that the desire to hit the target (while being aware of the sights) will giude the shooter toward good fire control. But, it likely needs to be addressed as a seperate issue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
short_round Posted August 2, 2004 Share Posted August 2, 2004 I'd like to think that the desire to hit the target (while being aware of the sights) will giude the shooter toward good fire control. But, it likely needs to be addressed as a seperate issue. Totally. It's the difference between driver's education and driving on the freeway. When you first get into the car it's all about here is the steering wheel, here is the break, here is the turn signal, then let's drive and stay between the lines. Later on you go where you need to go without thinking about turning the wheel or stepping on the gas. You just do it. You drive. After driving for awhile most of us end up with enough excess ability to occasionally flip the bird at people (you know, the finger.) You bring whatever fire control you have practiced/developed with you to the match and run it to the edge of its envelope. If you push it too far you crash and burn. If you don't push it enough, you're not going as fast as you can which is just silly. You don't work on fire control at a match, or even during practice stages. You work on fire control when you are bench rested or standing still shooting groups. After that, it is what is until you work on it some more or gets worse if you begin to neglect it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rhino Posted August 3, 2004 Share Posted August 3, 2004 Rhino, that may be where you are? Yeah, I definitely have intermittent trigger control problems. It seems like a random thing, and curiously about 90% or more of my practice for the last few months has been shooting groups at different distances. Some days I do really well, and others I suck bilge water. I'm not sure what I do differently! You're making a good point that I've not really addressed yet, though. I see the sights before I press the trigger, and I see the sights after the gun settles down. What I don't always (or even usually) see is the sights and orientation of the gun as I am pressing the trigger and as the gun is cycling. It's very possible that I am anticipating the recoil and flinching and closing my eyes at that time. The wimpiest ammo I shoot makes 182+ PF ... maybe I'll try wearing my muffs over plugs and see if that helps any while I'm trying to watch the sights during the recoil cycle. Thanks for the advice, everyone! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted August 3, 2004 Share Posted August 3, 2004 It's very possible that I am anticipating the recoil and flinching and closing my eyes at that time. Yes...very possible...and most likely. Good idea on the plugs and muffs. That can't hurt. I would shoot with no other goal than to see the front sight lift out of the notch from now...until it is habit. To me...after having eqipment that works...this is THE most important fundamental in shooting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dead Buff Posted August 3, 2004 Author Share Posted August 3, 2004 Well, work caught up with me, so I'll do all the training over the weekend. It seems that currently my biggest problems are watching the front sight rise, trigger control and maybe grip - all went to hell since all was great. I've always shot with a finger forward hold, but read everywhere that all weakhand fingers must be underneath the triggerguard - feels real weird. Is this realy a must? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcoliver Posted August 3, 2004 Share Posted August 3, 2004 I've always shot with a finger forward hold, but read everywhere that all weakhand fingers must be underneath the triggerguard - feels real weird. Is this realy a must? No, not really a must. I can recall at least one french guy and another going by the name of "The Burner" who uses this grip and both are world class shooters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dead Buff Posted August 3, 2004 Author Share Posted August 3, 2004 That were my thoughts also, but they are the only ones I could come up with. That guy in the Netherlands that came from Israel, the guys from the states, that RSA guy who's currently Modified World Champ and some other guys and girls who still seriously "kick me butt" got the the fingers underneath.... Guess its a case of what works best for you.... Will watch the FS rise, will squeeze the trigger with the tip of my finger, will point my thumbs at the target, etc....lets see what happens Saturday.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jake Di Vita Posted August 3, 2004 Share Posted August 3, 2004 Use other styles as a baseline for your own. I don't think it's really a good idea to adopt any type of style totally. I personally have my index finger of my weak hand still under the trigger guard, but forward so my middle finger and the rest of my weakhand is higher up on the gun. It works well for me, but I wouldn't necessarily recommend it to anyone. Find what is most comforatable for you, shoot that way, if the sight tracks good, keep it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted August 3, 2004 Share Posted August 3, 2004 I took my finger off the the trigger guard when I got a serious about improving. It did feel weird. It doesn now. (I also had to ditch the weaver stance and some other stuff) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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