RiggerJJ Posted June 27, 2012 Share Posted June 27, 2012 Curt & Shawn, Nothing wrong with thinking outside the box, I applaude you for it BUT...! Open would then become the equipment race to end all equipment races. If you don't have with you every choice of all three guns, you will loose. Do you want the competition to turn into whoever brings the most guns wins? I can see it turning into just that... just look at shotgun; you will have to have at least 3 options. An X-Rail, a tuber, and a box mag fed! Sorry, but some of us are just not that well endowed with money... Its a shooting competition, as in demonstrate your abilities to solve the shooting solutions with the toys your brought AND CHOSE to use for that particular MATCH. lets keep it that way... jj and btw, I think maybe this has drifted far enough from the original topic that Chris posted that we should probably take it to another thread...he needs feedback on the proposed rules he has posted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stlhead Posted June 27, 2012 Share Posted June 27, 2012 There will always be challenges. At least we are able to discuss possible options for the future. I am not holding my breath for any changes to occur, I am just advocating consideration. I was afraid to get into a discussion about what rule changes I would like to see, because I know that many people are just not ready to even consider them right now. I think that a better way to demonstrate what I think would make or sport more fun would be to put on a match to demonstrate what I think the future of our sport holds. I will endeavor to do just that, and hopefully I can get a few people to come shoot it and see what they think. JJ put his money where his mouth was with HM this year, and I respect him immensely for that. We should all aspire to do similar. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stlhead Posted June 27, 2012 Share Posted June 27, 2012 Sorry JJ, you posted while I was typing. I agree that this idea has run it's coarse in this thread, no need to keep beating this drum right now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bikerburgess Posted June 27, 2012 Share Posted June 27, 2012 I see a potential problem with shotguns on metal targets. the rules do not seem to have an allowance for shot not taking down a plate or popper due to too few pellets hitting, it is by definition still HIT but it has not fallen or indicated as intended so you have to order a re shoot. I have seen and shot many targets that did not fall when shot with a 12ga cylinder bore load of #6 shot. I don't have a problem with some plates being harder to take down and making you want to run a tighter choke at the cost of needing to aim more on the closer stuff. I don't want to issue a re shoot every time a guy (like me) shows up with a cylinder bore and has a plate not go down when he "hits" it. I like to think of those plates as the V in DVC. 8.4.21 Scoring metal targets for handgun must be shot and fall or overturn to score. Other targets may selfindicate. Scoring Poppers which fail to fall or self-indicate when hit, are subject to the provisions of Section[3.7] & rule [10.4.5.1]. 8.4.22 Metal scoring shotgun plates will be scored as a hit, if the plate falls from a hit on the plate, base or supporting stand when the plate is shot at. 8.4.23 Unlike Poppers, metal plates are not subject to calibration or calibration challenges. If a scoring metal plate has been hit but fails to fall, self-indicate, or overturn as designed, the Range Officer shall declare range equipment failure and order the competitor to reshoot the course of fire, after the faulty plate has been rectified. The Range Officer shall be the final arbiter as to whether the plate is functioning as designed. Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarkCO Posted June 27, 2012 Share Posted June 27, 2012 I see a potential problem with shotguns on metal targets. the rules do not seem to have an allowance for shot not taking down a plate or popper due to too few pellets hitting, it is by definition still HIT but it has not fallen or indicated as intended so you have to order a re shoot. I have seen and shot many targets that did not fall when shot with a 12ga cylinder bore load of #6 shot. I don't have a problem with some plates being harder to take down and making you want to run a tighter choke at the cost of needing to aim more on the closer stuff. Mike, with these two rules... 10.4.2 The entire front of scoring metal targets must be painted a single color, preferably white. Shotgun targets may be unpainted. 10.4.2.1 Self indicating metal scoring targets need not be painted after each competitor. Pretty much if you don't knock it down, you best be putting another round on target. We ran our match this way and had no issues. Plates are not subject to calibration, but any good RM will makes sure that the targets are appropriate. Poppers are subject to challenge, but with a 9mm minor, like 1/3 the horsepower of a 12 guage and about half of a 20 guage. I think I did 6 calibrations in the match, 2 were shotgun targets, all went down with a 122 PF 9mm load. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bikerburgess Posted June 28, 2012 Share Posted June 28, 2012 So not painting a plate makes it not hit? I think directly addressing the issue would be better. How about we just make it so rifle and shotgun targets must indicate to score. Only if the RO finds a reason to suspect a targets function during a course of fire and the target is found to be defective then order the re shoot. Mike Ps at 20 yd a 12 ga cylinder bore will spread to about 36" that makes a 8" plate about 5% of the pattern so the 9mm wins big and at 50yd 7/8oz of #9 will not knock anything down and may not even break a clay but a 9mm will. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frag316 Posted June 28, 2012 Share Posted June 28, 2012 I see a potential problem with shotguns on metal targets. the rules do not seem to have an allowance for shot not taking down a plate or popper due to too few pellets hitting, it is by definition still HIT but it has not fallen or indicated as intended so you have to order a re shoot. I have seen and shot many targets that did not fall when shot with a 12ga cylinder bore load of #6 shot. I don't have a problem with some plates being harder to take down and making you want to run a tighter choke at the cost of needing to aim more on the closer stuff. I don't want to issue a re shoot every time a guy (like me) shows up with a cylinder bore and has a plate not go down when he "hits" it. I like to think of those plates as the V in DVC. 8.4.21 Scoring metal targets for handgun must be shot and fall or overturn to score. Other targets may selfindicate. Scoring Poppers which fail to fall or self-indicate when hit, are subject to the provisions of Section[3.7] & rule [10.4.5.1]. 8.4.22 Metal scoring shotgun plates will be scored as a hit, if the plate falls from a hit on the plate, base or supporting stand when the plate is shot at. 8.4.23 Unlike Poppers, metal plates are not subject to calibration or calibration challenges. If a scoring metal plate has been hit but fails to fall, self-indicate, or overturn as designed, the Range Officer shall declare range equipment failure and order the competitor to reshoot the course of fire, after the faulty plate has been rectified. The Range Officer shall be the final arbiter as to whether the plate is functioning as designed. Mike Every stage description I've ever read says "Steel must fall to score."if you hit it and it doesn't fall, you're SOL on that target. Shoot twice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bikerburgess Posted June 28, 2012 Share Posted June 28, 2012 So not painting a plate makes it not hit? I think directly addressing the issue would be better. How about we just make it so rifle and shotgun targets must indicate to score. Only if the RO finds a reason to suspect a targets function during a course of fire and the target is found to be defective then order the re shoot. Mike Ps at 20 yd a 12 ga cylinder bore will spread to about 36" that makes a 8" plate about 5% of the pattern so the 9mm wins big and at 50yd 7/8oz of #9 will not knock anything down and may not even break a clay but a 9mm will. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bikerburgess Posted June 28, 2012 Share Posted June 28, 2012 So not painting a plate makes it not hit? I think directly addressing the issue would be better. How about we just make it so rifle and shotgun targets must indicate to score. Only if the RO finds a reason to suspect a targets function during a course of fire and the target is found to be defective then order the re shoot. Mike Ps at 20 yd a 12 ga cylinder bore will spread to about 36" that makes a 8" plate about 5% of the pattern so the 9mm wins big and at 50yd 7/8oz of #9 will not knock anything down and may not even break a clay but a 9mm will. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarkCO Posted June 28, 2012 Share Posted June 28, 2012 (edited) Deleted...the point has already been made... Edited June 28, 2012 by MarkCO Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DyNo! Posted June 28, 2012 Share Posted June 28, 2012 (edited) I've never seen a calibration check in Outlaw 3-Gun, and I'm cool with that. (Hell, I've never seen anyone ask for one or get pouty when a target doesn't fall - not including the ones that turn sideways) Every stage description I've ever read says "Steel must fall to score."if you hit it and it doesn't fall, you're SOL on that target. Shoot twice. Yup, if you could hit it the first time - shoot it again and pull the trigger harder the second time! Better yet, since we don't use power factors - shoot more powerful bullets! (Or carry some) Edited June 28, 2012 by DyNo! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jesse Tischauser Posted June 28, 2012 Share Posted June 28, 2012 (edited) So not painting a plate makes it not hit? I think directly addressing the issue would be better. How about we just make it so rifle and shotgun targets must indicate to score. Only if the RO finds a reason to suspect a targets function during a course of fire and the target is found to be defective then order the re shoot. Mike Ps at 20 yd a 12 ga cylinder bore will spread to about 36" that makes a 8" plate about 5% of the pattern so the 9mm wins big and at 50yd 7/8oz of #9 will not knock anything down and may not even break a clay but a 9mm will. My Light Mod Choke and 1300 fps 1 1/8 shot AA's won't take down a 5" plate with any regularity past 17 yards. The small poppers are actually slightly harder than that especially if they are set heavy. Edited June 28, 2012 by Jesse Tischauser Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frag316 Posted June 28, 2012 Share Posted June 28, 2012 (edited) So not painting a plate makes it not hit? I think directly addressing the issue would be better. How about we just make it so rifle and shotgun targets must indicate to score. Only if the RO finds a reason to suspect a targets function during a course of fire and the target is found to be defective then order the re shoot. Mike Ps at 20 yd a 12 ga cylinder bore will spread to about 36" that makes a 8" plate about 5% of the pattern so the 9mm wins big and at 50yd 7/8oz of #9 will not knock anything down and may not even break a clay but a 9mm will. No, I think you missed the point--not painting a popper means it's subject to a calibration challenge because you can't tell whether the competitor hit it. Not painting a plate is irrelevant to anyone but the shooter, because plates MUST FALL to score. Paint simply means the competitor can tell whether they hit the plate or not, so they can adjust for the second shot so they don't suck up a miss. Falling is an indication of a scorable hit, you know . . . . Edited June 28, 2012 by frag316 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarkCO Posted June 28, 2012 Share Posted June 28, 2012 I've never seen a calibration check in Outlaw 3-Gun, and I'm cool with that. (Hell, I've never seen anyone ask for one or get pouty when a target doesn't fall - not including the ones that turn sideways) We asked for a few on stage 3 last weekend. Kurt obliged, reshoots occurred. But agree they are rare for most shooters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bikerburgess Posted June 28, 2012 Share Posted June 28, 2012 I get knock it down to score but the rule as written says if it doesn't fall when hit order a re shoot. I actualy like the idea of targets that are harder for some equipment to activate. Know your equipment know your limits. I just want the rule set to be set up to deal with it. Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jadeslade Posted June 28, 2012 Share Posted June 28, 2012 Wow. This has gotten messy. Sometimes you have to like trust some people with experience. I would not want to be Chris and read this. I trust Chris. I trust Chuck. I trust Linda. I am not sure there is a higher level of experience in 3 Gun in the BOD than those people. I don't think this is that complicated. I appreciate the chance to comment on the rules proposals. Why is this such a pissing contest? I think the rules look good, mostly. Except for putting a flag in a loaded gun. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Religious Shooter Posted June 28, 2012 Share Posted June 28, 2012 I think it would be nice if it was rewritten. But: 8.4.23 Unlike Poppers, metal plates are not subject to calibration or calibration challenges. If a scoring metal plate has been hit but fails to fall, self-indicate, or overturn as designed, the Range Officer shall declare range equipment failure and order the competitor to reshoot the course of fire, after the faulty plate has been rectified. The Range Officer shall be the final arbiter as to whether the plate is functioning as designed. A metal plate isn't designed to fall down with one... two... three... pellet hits. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frag316 Posted June 28, 2012 Share Posted June 28, 2012 No, the rule, as written, says the RO is the final arbiter on whether it functioned as designed, if the RO doesn't think you hit it solidly enough, then you don't get a reshoot. If you disagree, you call the RM. then, you can cough up the $100 to take it to arbitration if you call the RM to dispute the RO's ruling and the RM agrees with the RO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jadeslade Posted June 28, 2012 Share Posted June 28, 2012 That one plate is not going to ruin your match. Just shoot it again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarkCO Posted June 28, 2012 Share Posted June 28, 2012 (edited) I actualy like the idea of targets that are harder for some equipment to activate. Know your equipment know your limits. I just want the rule set to be set up to deal with it. Mike If this is not enough for you, then I would not suggest you shoot an outlaw match where there is no such rule, no paint, no calibration of anything (other than an expereinced staff who know what they are doing...at most matches). These are the kinds of discussions that cause rulebooks open for input from multiple peope to get so large. Edited June 28, 2012 by MarkCO Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chendersby Posted June 28, 2012 Author Share Posted June 28, 2012 I think it would be nice if it was rewritten. But: 8.4.23 Unlike Poppers, metal plates are not subject to calibration or calibration challenges. If a scoring metal plate has been hit but fails to fall, self-indicate, or overturn as designed, the Range Officer shall declare range equipment failure and order the competitor to reshoot the course of fire, after the faulty plate has been rectified. The Range Officer shall be the final arbiter as to whether the plate is functioning as designed. A metal plate isn't designed to fall down with one... two... three... pellet hits. Do you have a suggested rewrite? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chendersby Posted June 28, 2012 Author Share Posted June 28, 2012 USPSA needs trecognizeze that pistol only matches and 3 gun matches are two different animals... and should be treated as such. I agree - but I don't think that's being considered. I deleted my first post but this is pretty much why. USPSA seems INTENT to take over multigun by assimilation. USPSA rules for multigun just dont work. USPSA should just face it that most of us want IMG style rules and adopt them and make the IMG/3 gun nation partners instead of trying to figure out how to tweak the USPSA rules to take over. Its not going to work. And I think lots of shooters would have hard feeling toward USPSA for trying to be the 300 pound gorilla. Bingo... That's right first 3gun then THE WORLD! (evil manical laugh). Seriously, I know most all of the match directors of the non USPSA matches personally. I am pretty confident we aren't assimilating any of them any time soon. My only intent with these rules is to get USPSA in line with the rest of the 3 gun world and provide our clubs and members with a complete rule set for running 3 gun matches. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Religious Shooter Posted June 28, 2012 Share Posted June 28, 2012 I think it would be nice if it was rewritten. But: 8.4.23 Unlike Poppers, metal plates are not subject to calibration or calibration challenges. If a scoring metal plate has been hit but fails to fall, self-indicate, or overturn as designed, the Range Officer shall declare range equipment failure and order the competitor to reshoot the course of fire, after the faulty plate has been rectified. The Range Officer shall be the final arbiter as to whether the plate is functioning as designed. A metal plate isn't designed to fall down with one... two... three... pellet hits. Do you have a suggested rewrite? My problem is the word "hit". There's precedence that one BB is a hit (the Golden BB rule). But we all know that one BB isn't going to be enough to knock down a plate. I think "hit" needs to be clarified. I would simply just add the word "sufficiently" in front of "hit". "If a scoring metal plate has been sufficiently hit but fails to fall, self-indicate, or overturn as designed, the Range Officer shall declare range equipment failure and order the competitor to reshoot the course of fire, after the faulty plate has been rectified." "Sufficently" is imprecise and somewhat vague, but we can't be precise to begin with since plates aren't calibrated. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frag316 Posted June 28, 2012 Share Posted June 28, 2012 (edited) I think it would be nice if it was rewritten. But: 8.4.23 Unlike Poppers, metal plates are not subject to calibration or calibration challenges. If a scoring metal plate has been hit but fails to fall, self-indicate, or overturn as designed, the Range Officer shall declare range equipment failure and order the competitor to reshoot the course of fire, after the faulty plate has been rectified. The Range Officer shall be the final arbiter as to whether the plate is functioning as designed. A metal plate isn't designed to fall down with one... two... three... pellet hits. Do you have a suggested rewrite? My problem is the word "hit". There's precedence that one BB is a hit (the Golden BB rule). But we all know that one BB isn't going to be enough to knock down a plate. I think "hit" needs to be clarified. I would simply just add the word "sufficiently" in front of "hit". "If a scoring metal plate has been sufficiently hit but fails to fall, self-indicate, or overturn as designed, the Range Officer shall declare range equipment failure and order the competitor to reshoot the course of fire, after the faulty plate has been rectified." "Sufficently" is imprecise and somewhat vague, but we can't be precise to begin with since plates aren't calibrated. Ehh. I think adding "sufficiently" to the phrase makes things worse. The sentence right after what you keep quoting gives the RO discretion to determine whether it's range equipment failure or not. It's not like you're going to get multiple reshoots off of this, because you rarely see just one plate in a given shooting array--it's usually multiple ones. If you fail to knock over one and then knock over the rest, I bet the RO will examine the one you didn't knock over to determine whether it's faulty. But, if your pattern of knockdowns is spotty, you'll probably be told you need to tighten your choke or re-engage your missed targets next time. It's not as big of a deal as bikerburgess is making it out to be, especially since he keeps ignoring the sentence saying the RO is the final authority on whether the plate was hit or not. NOTE AFTER EDIT--I still think "sufficiently" is unnecessary--it doesn't add anything at best, and potentially makes it worse when it comes to arbitration. What constitutes "sufficiently?" I realize you admit it's vague, but I think it muddies an already muddy situation more. Edited June 28, 2012 by frag316 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Religious Shooter Posted June 28, 2012 Share Posted June 28, 2012 Do you understand that as it is already written I agree that you shouldn't be getting a reshoot if you don't knock down the plate? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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