IPSC Separating Plates

[Neil Beverley]

I'm going to resurrect an old post from the 3 Gun Forums because perhaps it doesn't always get the same readership there as here.

In the USPSA/IPSC rules Forum there has been a discussion about the value of Forward Falling Pepper Poppers. There are invaluable for 2 reasons: reliability and lack of richochets.

This thread re-introduces a target design which we have been using very successfully in matches in the UK for some 7 years now. They were also used at the European Shotgun Championships last year in Italy.

They are primarily designed for use with shotguns for both birdshot and buck. I've pasted my original post almost in it's entirety. I've recently seen a slight variation to my original design which I believe should be an improvement and I'll try to explain this in another post when I have a bit more time.

The targets are very easy to reset and consistent every time. Reset time is very fast.

The spacing between other targets and in particular the relationship with penalty targets is very precise.

They always fall when properly hit and there is no doubt that they have fallen, no turning sideways.

They still work well at longer distances.

They are suitable for birdshot and buckshot.

IPSC rules for SG permit any size of plate between a minimum of 15cms x 15cms (5.9 x 5.9 inches) and a maximum of 45cms x 30cms (17.7 x 11.8 inches). Recommended sizes are 15cms x 15cms, 20cms x 15cms and 25cms x 20cms. In the UK we mostly use 20 x 15 (say 8 x 6 ins) and some 25cms x 20cms (10 x 8 ins).

Please note that the standard base of 15 x 15 cms (6 x 6 inches) has been thoroughly tested and works easily up to the 25 x 20 cms target. The base will probably work with larger sizes as well but we haven’t tried it.

If you use rectangular targets they will sit in the base just as easily horizontally as well as vertically. Providing you maintain consistency in a match this adds to the versatility of the target.

If you paint one side red and leave the other side natural colour then at club level and for practice days you have interchangeable shoot and penalty targets to be used to suit. This adds to the flexibility of the target use.

“Splashback” is minimal and the range crew in particular are grateful for this. I’m no engineer but I’m sure that this is as a result of the forward angle of the plates and possibly because when they are hit they travel backwards along with the shot and the shot isn’t reflected back up range.

After repeated use you will find that lead fouling starts to build up in the locating slots but this is easily cleaned out with a screwdriver or similar tool.

Over the years that we have been using them I haven’t noticed any significant warping of the plates. The surfaces remain nicely flat.

These images show 4 holes in the corners so they can be nailed to timber supports, benches beams, etc. The holes are 7mm in diameter (I would suggest 0.3 in equivalent) and we’ve found that they can be staked into position into the ground using 15cm / 6 in nails or similar pegs. They usually stay firm in place for up to say 70-80 competitors. The bases have also seen short spikes (2) welded to the base to they can be hammered into the ground or longer single spikes to raise the height to suit. All methods work well but for storage the targets as pictured take up very little room.

With an early prototype I tried simply welding the front posts in place but it soon became clear that they weren’t going to last long so I had the posts set into the base and then welded and there hasn’t been a single front post dislodged in 6 years of use. It should go without saying that all welding is kept away from the locating slot.

I chose to use a round front post as being the most suitable but others have tried using a blade angled up from front to back at about 45 degrees. This design was only welded in place and didn’t catch on. I also decided to use 2 front posts whereas 1 would probably do. I reckoned that 2 would be more reliable and I was able to move them to the sides rather than a single post in the centre. I figured that most shots are aimed at the centre so up close the posts don’t get hit much anyway and at distance there is only a small surface area on the posts and the shot pattern has spread out significantly.

Square front posts could be used but only if set at an angle of 45 degrees, so from the front a diamond shape is presented. A flat square post parallel to the target creates an opportunity for more splashback as the post stays firmly in place and will reflect the shot. They would also create greater resistance to impact which is more likely to disturb the base. However, if set at 45 degrees my logic tells me that the shot will “slip” past and onto the target instead, Finally this also avoids too much surface contact and possible resistance as the target “twists” out of the slot when shot.

On this subject I noticed during the prototype testing that the front lower edge of the strike plate was slightly snagging on the front posts when falling so I added a small radius to the edge and the strike plates now exit smoothly every time. Make sure you add this radius to the top and bottom and the side as well if you are likely to use them horizontally. Honestly guys, it’s not worth skipping this in the manufacturing process – it really does make a difference.

On the first batch that I had produced I chose to only use a back retaining lug 5mm (0.2 ins) high. I suspect, but haven’t proved, that this could be a little higher. If made a little higher it may give a better still retention but if too high may start to snag the target as it falls.

What we have noticed is that the only wear on the targets is on this back lug and the older ones have been burred over quite a lot. Some are becoming a bit of a problem for resetting now but after 6 years heavy usage I’m not too unhappy. They just need some maintenance on these lugs and they should be good for another 5 or so years. If I personally had some more produced I would discuss with the engineering company either using a harder material to resist this burring or I’ve also considered fitting a threaded bolt and then using a large nut which could be replaced when it starts to get worn. Either way I’m sure that this is a very minor issue that hasn’t really been too much trouble and can be fixed anyway.

If the plates are set fairly close to where they are likely to be shot from they will fly backwards a short distance. To avoid them tumbling into another target and accidentally knocking it over it is possible to drill a hole in the strike plate and bolt on a length of suitable chain which is then staked to the ground or otherwise fixed in place. This limits how far the plate travels and avoids all problems as described above. We have found that this is best fixed to the low outside edge of the plates.

Heavier (thicker) plates could be used if the locating gap is adjusted accordingly and the targets wouldn’t travel so far but may become harder to knock over at distance. Based on my experiences to date I reckon that the 10mm (0.39 ins) steel that I chose has been close to ideal.

Kurtm has suggested that these targets might also work for rifle and handgun and my only concerns would be the front posts. I’m happy to let some other brave sole take up the challenge.

A detailed drawing can be found in the IPSC 2004 Shotgun rule book – Appendix C3. It’s also in the 2003 rule book under a different appendix number. I have the original drawing as an AutoCAD .dwg drawing if anyone wants it and lets me have their email address and I’ll happily forward it on. Don’t expect a brilliant technical drawing, I’m an enthusiastic amateur rather than an engineer and the success of the target has been more luck than sound technical knowledge!

[EricW]

Very nice! Much nicer than similar setups I've seen in the past.

[Phil Dunlop]

I made up 20 of these plates and we used them in our 3 Gun Nationals last week. They worked perfectly, no splashback reported, no calibration issues, very quick to reset and with the bonus that they allow the shotgun stages to be set up under the pistol ones. Just remove the paper target frames when your done and put the plates on the bases, really quick and convenient.

We also made up a plate system of our own, I'll head to the range with the digi cam and post a pic when I get a chance,

P.D.

[Skywalker]

Neil,

as per your request, I'm posting here some shots of the steel plates for handgun, done according to your design, that we've been using since april 2003 almost weekly both for training and matches.

As you might notice, it's a well worn plate, but the surface is still flat with nothing more than dirts marks.

I can provide bigger resolution/size images, if needed: just PM me.

[Neil Beverley]

Luca

Many thanks for posting the pictues. I note you've followed my original design more closely that the targets used at the ESC.

The angled "ramp" at the front is a good addition and gets over my fears of a bullet strike on the posts. With that configuration I would guess that any rounds hitting the deflector either still strike the plate above or the ground below.

Vince has received his sample and is going to try it out next weekend.

[Neil Beverley]

Luca

I should have asked - Did you still use 10mm plate?

[Skywalker]

Sorry Neil,

didn't take the time to measure that plate, but I guess if it's not 10mm, it's very close to.

[grassy knoll]

if you hit the stand does the plate sometimes fall?

[Skywalker]

It shouldn't happen that often.

The stand pole is actually an inverse V, and the impacting bullet is most often deflected, thus the perpendicular (to the plate face) component of the momentum shouldn't be sufficient to knock down the plate.

If you hit the upper surface of the angled ramp at the front, the bullet is deflected towards the plate and it falls, but this is correct, since the upper surface of the ramp only covers the base of the plate (that should be scoring surface as well).

[Steve Moneypenny]

Very cool design guys may have to give this a try when i feel energetic.

for the "burred" pieces that aren't hard enough. why not even it off with a grinder, find some hard welding rod (most standard rod is harder than steel) and weld where has been battered... that should make them good as new.

[Flexmoney]

The angled guards for the front posts...

How about...instead of having it angle 45 degrees up, and 45 degrees down...why not just use a flat piece of steel...extended highier, with the 45 degree angle down?

That way, all the splatter goes down, away from the target. So misses won't ride up the deflector, and take out the plate.

[Skywalker]

Flex,

the mod you're proposing would, de facto, act as a hard-cover for the bottom of the plate, thus diminishing its surface.

I'm not sure if this is exactly what we'd want to: the way it is now will allow a hit in the base area, that is covered by the guard, to still knock the plate down; this way the whole plate surface is effective.

[Flexmoney]

Right. The available plate surface is that above the deflector.

It is the same amount of surface that available with the 45 V-deflector.

Do you want hits on the deflector to count?

[Patrick Sweeney]

I don't think it matters one way or the other: if a hit on the deflector takes the plate down, it does so for anyone who shoots it. It simply becomes an extra inch of plate or so. My big question would be to our welder: which is easier for him to make? If one design is more hassle to make, then make the easier one and the club will get more units per labor and time invested.

But then, my ancestors came to Ireland from Scotland.

[Flexmoney]

I don't think it matters one way or the other: if a hit on the deflector takes the plate down, it does so for anyone who shoots it. It simply becomes an extra inch of plate or so.

I don't know...the game isn't to shoot the deflector...it is to shoot the plate. Hard cover hits shouldn't count?

In pistol, we don't count hits unless they have a partial bullet hit.

We could have a Minor vs Major issue here (and plates aren't there to test power factor, right?).

In shotgun, we could have an issues with shot size, etc.

Sure, an arguement can be made for "picking the right equipment", but we want to measure hitting the palte, right?

(Me...firmly in the camp that only hits on the target should count )

Edited November 2, 2004 by Flexmoney

[Neil Beverley]

I don't think it matters one way or the other: if a hit on the deflector takes the plate down, it does so for anyone who shoots it. It simply becomes an extra inch of plate or so.

I don't know...the game isn't to shoot the deflector...it is to shoot the plate. Hard cover hits shouldn't count?

In pistol, we don't count hits unless they have a partial bullet hit.

We could have a Minor vs Major issue here (and plates are there to test power factor, right?).

In shotgun, we could have an issues with shot size, etc.

Sure, an arguement can be made for "picking the right equipment", but we want to measure hitting the palte, right?

(Me...firmly in the camp that only hits on the target should count )

Flex

I'm happy with both your solution and Luca's.

For Shotgun we simply don't have a problem with the targets without any reflector. We haven't been experiencing splashback with birdshot or buckshot. In the UK we don't shoot slugs on metal targets so it's never been an issue for us. The spread of the pattern renders any strikes on the posts as irrelevant, some of the pattern hits nigh on for certain.

I've been thinking for a while that the solution may be to fit a diamond shaped front post instead of the round posts. It will acjiece the same as the deflector plates. Please see below . I don't how difficult it will be to cut the receiving holes to be square instead of round.

[Tman33_99]

We could have a Minor vs Major issue here (and plates are there to test power factor, right?).

Actually Poppers are the only metal targets to be used to reconize PF. Plates MUST fall if hit.

From the new Green Book.

US4.3.1.6 Unlike IPSC Poppers, metal plates are not subject to calibration

or calibration challenges. If a metal target has been

hit but fails to fall or overturn, the Range Officer shall

declare range equipment failure and order the competitor

to reshoot the course of fire, after the faulty plate has been

rectified.

But otherwise I agree w/you Flex. We need to award hitting the plate, but we need to make sure that the available area is between the min and max according to Appendix C3.

Simplicity of fabrication, especially for the clubs that weld their own, plays a big part of the equation.

Tman

[Skywalker]

Flex,

my point was that the deflector actually reduced the plate surface by providing hardcover to the base.

With the V-shaped deflector, the upper part of the deflector acts like the plate, thus the whole scoring surface of the plate is available for strike.

[Flexmoney]

We could have a Minor vs Major issue here (and plates are there to test power factor, right?).

Actually Poppers are the only metal targets to be used to reconize PF. Plates MUST fall if hit.

Tman,

Opps. I had a typo there...left off the most important part. And, that was the point I was trying to make.

You are 100% correct. Plates do NOT measure pf. (I went back and editied)

[Flexmoney]

Flex,

my point was that the deflector actually reduced the plate surface by providing hardcover to the base.

With the V-shaped deflector, the upper part of the deflector acts like the plate, thus the whole scoring surface of the plate is available for strike.

Skywalker,

I get where you are coming from. But, the stand is not the plate, right?

We are spliting hairs here, but either you are hitting the plate (and it should fall), or you are not hitting the plate (and it should not fall).

Either way, we are putting something in front of the plate that is not plate. Which (by definition) makes it hardcover.

A full bullet diameter hit (in pistol) into hardcover cannot go on to score. REF

[Flexmoney]

And...can't we have as much hardcover in front of a target as we wish?

So, as long as the actual target plate is properly sized, it matters not how much of it is hidden by hardcover?

[Vince Pinto]

4.3.1.5 Scoring metal targets must be shot and fall or overturn to score. Scoring metal targets which accidentally turn edge-on or sideways or which a Range Officer deems have fallen or overturned due to a shot on the apparatus supporting them or for any other accidental reason, will be treated as range equipment failure (see Rule 4.6.1).

(Your Friendly Neighbourhood Rules Guru)

[Tman33_99]

And...can't we have as much hardcover in front of a target as we wish?

So, as long as the actual target plate is properly sized, it matters not how much of it is hidden by hardcover?

Dooh .... Flex, you are completely correct.

[shred]

If you go with the angled-into-the-plate design (the "anti-Flex"), you may be able to simplify construction by dispensing with the front posts entirely and just using the top edge of the angle as the front stop.

[Dead Buff]

If you go with the angled-into-the-plate design (the "anti-Flex"), you may be able to simplify construction by dispensing with the front posts entirely and just using the top edge of the angle as the front stop.

...and add a 1cm vertical piece of steel as HC to ensure V hits do not carry the bullet to score - see comment and rule from Vince....