Help with USPSA rules in these situations, please

[mactiger]

but even the next shooter couldn't call for calibration without actually shooting a stage with an obvious REF there.

Sure he could; nothing prevents him from asking for it to be calibrated once it's reset, prior to his attempt at the course.

Troy

[omnia1911]

.......if you don't think a piece of steel is calibrated properly, you can always ask to have it checked before you shoot it.

Troy

Could you point me to the location in the rule book that supports this statement? Thanks.

[Vince Pinto]

Anyone else feels the rule concerning this situation could use an amendment? Vince  ???

My usual answer is "If I were King of IPSC, I'd ban poppers altogether" because, all things considered, poppers are more trouble than they're worth. Pending my Coronation as King Vinny (No Taxes, Great Parties), the bottom line is that there's really no panacea for our problems with poppers, but the options available to us are:

1. Ban Poppers: Problem solved, but people will scream we no longer have a way to recognise power.

2. Current System: Keep shooting till it falls, or stop (after one or more shots) and take your chances with a calibration. Flawed because your shot(s) may have been sufficient to loosen the popper, so it falls down at the mere sight of the trembling RM trying not to miss in front of the Super Squad.

3. Current System Plus: You're allowed to call for a calibration even after the popper has been shot down with at least two hits. Trouble is that you're actually calibrating for the next competitor, because you simply cannot be assured of replicating how the popper was set for you, nor do you know the power of the two rounds you had to fire to shoot it down (they might have been light loads). Inconclusive, and it would cause endless match delays.

4. Any Hit On The Calibration Area Counts For Score: Requires mandatory painting of poppers after each competitor, but it's possible the round which hit the popper wouldn't have made the Minor or Major grade of your other rounds, but you still get the score. Also hits splatter, so it's much more difficult to gauge whether a hit counts for score, unlike with paper. Good news is that poppers could be set not to fall (i.e. rigid).

5. Any Hit Anywhere Counts For Score: Similar to (3) above (except it removes the "scoring line" issue), but it effectively awards the same value to a "D" Zone hit (leg of the PP) as an "A" Zone hit (centre of the calibration area).

6. Require That Poppers Not Be Hinged: I think this would probably remove 90% of our problems, but people would want to hurt me for forcing them to modify their current design poppers.

7. Require That Poppers Not Be Hinged AND Be Forward-Falling ("FFPP"): If you think they'd be pissed with me for (6) above, I doubt even the team from CSI Miami would ever be able to identify my ashes, once they've been mixed with volcanic ash and horse doo-doo. However it would be much easier to use (3) or (4) if we only used FFPP.

8. Did I miss anything?

Personally, despite the risk of grievous bodily harm, I'd like to see (2) and (5) be used together. The single biggest problem is crap in hinges so, if you don't have hinges, you remove the single biggest problem, yes?

[mactiger]

...so it falls down at the mere sight of the trembling RM trying not to miss in front of the Super Squad.

5. Require That Poppers Not Be Hinged: I think this would probably remove 90% of our problems, but people would want to hurt me for forcing them to modify their current design poppers.

6. Require That Poppers Not Be Hinged AND Be Forward-Falling ("FFPP"): If you think they'd be pissed with me for (5) above, I doubt even the team from CSI Miami would ever be able to identify my ashes, once they've been mixed with volcanic ash and horse doo-doo. However it would be much easier to use (3) or (4) if we only used FFPP.

You must have seen Arnie trying to shoot one...

Seriously, I have no problem with the no hinge, or forward falling. We used some at Area 4 this year, and they worked great. By no hinge, I assume you mean just a slot on either end where a rod (the popper base) rides, right? No enclosed hinges?

Poppers can be a pain, but if the RO is keeping up with them as he should, then the pain is greatly alleviated.

Troy

[Vince Pinto]

Troy,

My favorite design is a two-part popper assembly. You have a "V" channel base, and the free-standing popper just stands in it. When it's shot, the popper falls "down & out" of the "V" channel, which looks something like this from the side view:

_____\_/______

The bottom of the popper just stands in the red section. The bottom of the popper has a smooth, circular rod welded to the bottom, which looks something like this from the side view:

||

O

[mactiger]

OK, got it. Sort of what I was thinking, but not quite. Looks like a trouble free design, though.

Thanks.

Troy

[mactiger]

.......if you don't think a piece of steel is calibrated properly, you can always ask to have it checked before you shoot it.

Troy

Could you point me to the location in the rule book that supports this statement? Thanks.

Sure. Look in US Appendix C, page 83 of the current, 14th edition rule book. I'm sure it's worded quite the same in the new rules, but I didn't look that up. Here's a partial quote:

"The calibration procedure for both the popper and the mini popper is as follows: ...In cases where proper calibration is brought into question, visually inspect the popper... .Then, if no obstruction is found, calibrate the popper using the above procedure."

David Wiz quoted part of this in an earlier post.

HTH,

Troy

[Vince Pinto]

David brings up a good point--if you don't think a piece of steel is calibrated properly, you can always ask to have it checked before you shoot it.

(Foghorn Leghorn voice) WHOOOOA, Nellie! (actual sound)

Troy, I think he means that a competitor cannot demand that poppers be calibrated before he attempts the stage, and heaven forbid! How you say "Two months to shoot US Nationals" in Chinese??

The onus is on the Range Crew, who might be able to calibrate regularly throughout the day (in a perfect world, on a "before each squad basis"), but that depends on the RM and whether or not he'll authorise multiple calibration guns (e.g. one for each stage with poppers).

[mactiger]

I say, I say, Hold on there, boy! The current USPSA book says what I quoted, which I've always taken to mean that a competitor can ask to have a popper calibrated. In fact, I've seen it done several times. It's not common, however, because as you say, the RO's generally manage their steel well, and can tell if something is getting out of whack. In the new (to the US) rules, I did notice that those words aren't in there, only something about the RM will get poppers calibrated "as required", which makes it considerably more vague as to what the competitor can request. But, it doesn't say that a competitor can't ask (you can always ask); I suppose that the answer would depend on the CRO and/or RM. As for slowing down the match, sure it's possible, but I've calibrated plenty of steel "on request", because someone thought it was too heavy, and it didn't slow anything down. (FWIW, I think we worry about "slowing the match down" way too much. Maybe I'm not shooting/working big enough matches, but things like popper calibrations just don't seem to have a huge effect. YMMV, of course.)

Like I said, though, unless it looks like the steel is set too heavy, the competitors generally don't demand a calibration prior to each attempt, and it would be unreasonable to do so. I believe, however, that if a heavy popper is brought to the CRO's attention, he should either lighten it up or call for calibration. It's the right thing to do.

Troy

[Sharyn]

7. Require That Poppers Not Be Hinged AND Be Forward-Falling ("FFPP"): If you think they'd be pissed with me for (5) above, I doubt even the team from CSI Miami would ever be able to identify my ashes, once they've been mixed with volcanic ash and horse doo-doo. However it would be much easier to use (3) or (4) if we only used FFPP.

ROFL!!! The steel in question at the match I attended was a FFPP. That's why it was "tricky".

Where's Jeeper? He's the steel welding guru 'round the Houston parts. Maybe he'll build a prototype.

Are you two having fun?

[mactiger]

I'm having loads of fun. What else is there to do at work at 3 AM? And what's your excuse?

This is the scenario with a FFPP?

Situation #5: Shooter makes three center mass hits on steel pepper popper with major .40 loads and it goes down on the fourth hit.

Unless I'm mistaken, there had to be something really wrong with that piece of steel (not to mention the RO).

Vince, you seem to have more experience and know-how with the FFPP's than I do, how about it?

I was always under the impression that all it took was a light tap to make those babies fall. I know that was the case at A4. No calls for calibration at all.

Troy

[Vince Pinto]

I was always under the impression that all it took was a light tap to make those babies fall.  I know that was the case at A4.  No calls for calibration at all.

You can pick any prize from the top shelf

Yep, that about sums it up. In 3 or 4 years of using them exclusively here in Little China, we've not had a single failure or calibration challenge with a FFPP, God bless 'em. Ours are also not hinged - we use the "V" channel design I mentioned in the other thread.

The ironic thing is that they were originally mandated by the Police here, in order to minimise splatter flying over the back berm, and we were seriously unhappy campers at the time because we lost our ability to "recognise power". However after such a long time of trouble-free operation, we occasionally all burst into a Macarena (it's like a Haka, but it doesn't involve weird people like Kiwis).

And, boy, am I gonna get my ass whupped for that comment ....

[mactiger]

Thanks. Can I have the stuffed Kiwi?

I think the FFPP's will catch on here. I really liked their operation at that match.

I don't think they were hinged, either.

But, that gets me to thinking: Sniper, how fast were you hitting that FFPP? If you keep shooting them, they just stand up until you quit...

Troy

[Sharyn]

I'm not absolutely certain this was a FFPP that y'all are describing... although it fits the description of a pepper popper that falls forward. I'd never seen one like that before. Nearly all the shooters in my squad had trouble with that one popper... except me! I'm shooting Open at 170+ PF. The shooter was not shooting it very fast.

I'm having loads of fun. What else is there to do at work at 3 AM? And what's your excuse?

My excuse?... uhhh... bored at work too?

Jeeper, when you finally get around to this thread... please help me describe the farthest popper on Stage 5... it was different than the others.

[Vince Pinto]

If you keep shooting them, they just stand up until you quit...

Luckily you and I are not nasty sumbitches like the RO I saw at a match nearby (don't ask) who, at the Shoot-Off, wanted to have 6 regular, rearward falling poppers for each competitor, but he wanted the final "cross-over" poppers to be FFPP. Did I mention he was a nasty sumbitch?

Anyway, I convinced him, in a kind and gentle way, not to &$%# with competitor's minds, and he relented. He also thought there was a solar eclipse when I was speaking with him (Hi BDH!)

[Neil Beverley]

I will add to the discussions about FFPP to say we use them quite a lot in the UK as well. I wish they were all FF.

I can confirm that the reliability is superb and I echo Vince's comments that the reliability factor far outweighs the "recognize power" issue.

The splashback issue is also a significant consideration and I've eaten my fair share over the years so anything that avoids it is another big plus in my book.

From our experiences both Vince and I would prefer to only permit FFPP but being realistic we had to settle for adding in a recommendation to this effect only.

[Skywalker]

Vince, Neil,

anybody volunteering to post pictures of a FFPP with details of the hinge/no-hinge area?

It would be most useful to have a reference for future build-up.

Neil, I guess the hinge area is quite similar to your design of steel plates and stands for shotgun, that we used for ESC 2003, isn't it?

[Neil Beverley]

Vince, Neil,

anybody volunteering to post pictures of a FFPP with details of the hinge/no-hinge area?

It would be most useful to have a reference for future build-up.

Neil, I guess the hinge area is quite similar to your design of steel plates and stands for shotgun, that we used for ESC 2003, isn't it?

Sky

That's spooky! As you were adding your post I had just decided to drag out my original post on the separating plates but because it's not a rules issue I've recreated it in the IPSC or USPSA Discussions forum.

You can access the post by clicking HERE

Vince's popper design and my plate design are working on some similar principles but my plates fall/fly backwards. The main things that are resolved are reliability and minimal splashback.

The FFPP we use in the UK do not sit in a channel as shown by Vince but I really like his design. The UK poppers have a custom hinge arrangement which doesn't seem to foul up.

[Skywalker]

Sky

That's spooky!

Neil,

that's not spooky, that's fast reaction time!

[omnia1911]

I say, I say, Hold on there, boy!  The current USPSA book says what I quoted, which I've always taken to mean that a competitor can ask to have a popper calibrated.  In fact, I've seen it done several times.  It's not common, however, because as you say, the RO's generally manage their steel well, and can tell if something is getting out of whack.  In the new (to the US) rules, I did notice that those words aren't in there, only something about the RM will get poppers calibrated "as required", which makes it considerably more vague as to what the competitor can request.  But, it doesn't say that a competitor can't ask (you can always ask); I suppose that the answer would depend on the CRO and/or RM.  As for slowing down the match, sure it's possible, but I've calibrated plenty of steel "on request", because someone thought it was too heavy, and it didn't slow anything down.  (FWIW, I think we worry about "slowing the match down" way too much.  Maybe I'm not shooting/working big enough matches, but things like popper calibrations just don't seem to have a huge effect.  YMMV, of course.)

Like I said, though, unless it looks like the steel is set too heavy, the competitors generally don't demand a calibration prior to each attempt, and it would be unreasonable to do so.  I believe, however, that if a heavy popper is brought to the CRO's attention, he should either lighten it up or call for calibration.  It's the right thing to do.

Troy

I re-read Appendix C page 83 and I can't see how "The calibration procedure for both the mini-popper and popper is as follows:" text can be interpreted to allow a shooter to request a calibration prior to him shooting a stage.

The context of the paragraph in question on page 83 talks about "In cases where proper calibration is brought into question,...." and ends with "....the popper is to be recalibrated and the competitor must re-shoot the course of fire".

If the rule book is as you interpret it, why wouldn't every competitor automatically request that all poppers be recalibrated prior to them shooting a stage, if the rule book indeed allowed for it?

I can just see it now. The on deck shooter walks the stage and inspects each popper, determines that one or all of them "feel" a little heavy, or "seemed" to fall a little slowly for the previous shooter, and requests that they all be recalibrated. He repeats this for every stage with poppers.

Does the rule book need yet another clarification?

[.40AET]

Situation #1: Steel popper placed in front of a no-shoot. Shot clearly hits the steel and puts it down. Bullet fragment (?) leaves a large, elongated hole in the no-shoot.

Splatter would not leave the same grease ring that a fresh round would. While this is not a guarantee to win an arbitration, it should be a good start. The overlays should rule the splatter out.

[davidwiz]

Omnia1911 - You're right, "In cases where proper calibration is brought into question" is not explicitly defined. However, I think that anyone who has a concern about the calibration of a popper and asks the RM or his/her calibrating designate (as provided in Appendix C) has therefore "brought into question" the proper calibration of the popper under Appendix C.

As others have mentioned, worrying about holding up a match for the sake of speeding things along is not the way to go, not when you kick fairness to the curb.

As for the on-deck shooter or anyone else touching or moving the poppers to see if they are calibrated, it is prohibited by Rule 4.4, 4.4.1 and 4.4.2

4.4 Rearangement of Range Equipment or Surface

4.4.1 The competitor may not rearrange the ground or range equipment prior to the start of the course of fire.

4.4.2 The competitor may request that the officals take certain actions to ensure consistency and may refer the matter to the CRO on the stage or the Range Master.  The Range Master shall have the final authority in matters concerning the range surface.

So, from my reading, Rule 4.4.2 is incorporated into Appendix C - giving the compeitior before the COF the right to request a popper check of the popper and the authority to the appropriate match offical to act on that request if necessary.

-David

[Vince Pinto]

Hi guys,

It's not a great image (I'm still looking for an actual photo), but here's a diagram of a Forward Falling Pepper Popper ("FFPP").

[dv8]

So, Pepper Poppers really are evil? Well, since I am not the only one who thinks this way, I already feel better... thanks guys.

I agree with Vince on the FFPPs - I had some experience with those and it was trouble free. Fault proof design sounds like the right approach to solve the problem, and I hope that USPSA recognizes the issue and moves ahead with better standards on PPs, plates, and such.

Meanwhile, since we're still going to deal with the evil ones, I'd like to reiterate that nobody is safe from this kind of REF, even if you call for calibration you still may loose even with a good placement and PF. RM's calibrating hit may happen to be the last one needed to finally knock the PP down, so even if there was a REF - you may still loose.

In my case, everyone at the Area 8 stage 6 agreed that there was a REF, and the only thing that prevented me from being able to reshoot was THE RULE

[Vince Pinto]

Hi again guys,

In respect of the January 2004 Edition IPSC rulebook, I believe the following wording in bold makes it clear that calibration requests can only arise out of an actual "failure to fall", and not due to competitor "suspicion of fault":

4.5.2 The competitor may request that Match Officials take corrective actions to ensure consistency in respect of the range surface, the presentation of targets and/or any other matter. The Range Master will have final authority concerning all such requests.

--------------------------------------------

Appendix C1: Calibration of IPSC Poppers

<snip>

6. If, during a course of fire, a popper does not fall when shot, a competitor has three alternatives:

...... a) The popper is shot again until it falls. In this case, no further action is required and the course of fire is scored “as shot”.

...... The popper is left standing but the competitor does not challenge the calibration. In this case, no further action is required and the course of fire is scored “as shot”, with the subject popper scored as a miss.

...... c) The popper is left standing and the competitor challenges the calibration. In this case, the popper and the surrounding area on which it stands must not be touched or interfered with by any person. If a match official violates this rule, the competitor must reshoot the course of fire. If the competitor or any other person violates this rule, the popper will be scored as a miss and the rest of the course of fire will be scored “as shot”.

7. In the absence of any interference, a calibration officer must conduct a calibration test of the subject popper (when required under 6© above), from as near as possible to the point from where the competitor shot the popper, when the following will apply:

...... a) If the first shot fired by the calibration officer hits the calibration zone and the popper falls, the popper is deemed to be properly calibrated, and it will be scored as a miss.

...... If first the shot fired by the calibration officer hits the calibration zone and the popper does not fall, the popper is deemed to have failed, and the competitor must be ordered to reshoot the course of fire, once the popper has been recalibrated.

...... c) If the first shot fired by the calibration officer hits above or below the calibration zone, the calibration test is deemed to have failed and the competitor must be ordered to reshoot the course of fire.

...... d) If the first shot fired by the calibration officer misses the popper altogether, another shot must be fired until one of 7(a), 7( or 7© occurs.

<snip>

I hope this helps.