Pistol "Safe" Conditions

[RiggerJJ]

This one gets my goat;

put a pistol (or long gun) MUZZLE DOWN in a bucket or barrel ON THE GROUND. leave the safety off and walk away. Is it unsafe in that condition? What is going to happen? Walk all around it, downrange, uprange, etc. Does anything happen when its not touched? What is so unsafe about it? What is so unsafe about putting it in that condition? What is so unsafe about walking downrange of it to tape/reset the stage, or do your last walkthru?

Once it is no longer being touched (remove the human element) its safe. As soon as someone touches it thou...

(A "cook off" will happen safety on OR off, and if one does happen the muzzle is pointed DOWN)

Match DQs are for MAJOR SAFETY VIOLATIONS (ie; "you (or your firearm or ammo) are too unsafe to continue this match. go home and practice or fix it"). Putting a firearm in a barrel or bucket pointed muzzle down not on safe is FAR from a major safety violation when compared to sweeping body parts or someone else, breaking the 180, AD when reloading, and all the other violations reserved for match DQs.

As long as the firearm was abandon CORRECTLY MUZZLE DOWN, leaving the safety off should NOT be a match DQ...

jj

(nomex suit is now on)

I don't necessarily have a problem with this, provided the gun does not discharge. However, even a gun muzzle-down in a barrel could throw debris (rocks etc) in unsafe directions if it discharged. More disconcerting, a lot of the faster guys push the endge of the envelope by literally THROWING their gun into the barrel, and I am not sure this is wise with a rifle that has a <2lb single-action trigger without the safety applied. Watch the video of Nils getting DQd on Stage 2 at SMM3G... we are ALL lucky that he applied the safety catch before abandoning that rifle.

I am not advocating abandoning in any condition. The safety should be on or gun empty for an extra layer... but I am advocating not DQing people for doing it safe but forgeting. They should get a procedural (ours is 30 seconds).

The incident mentioned above was unsafe gun handling, (a discharge while abandoning is also unsafe gun handling) had nothing to do with what condition it was in. He basically dropped it, a clear DQ. Yes, it was a good thing the safety was on...

jj

[StealthyBlagga]

I am not advocating abandoning in any condition. The safety should be on or gun empty for an extra layer... but I am advocating not DQing people for doing it safe but forgeting. They should get a procedural (ours is 30 seconds).

Hmmm - I'm not sure I am that comfortable with a two-tier approach to the safety rules. Maybe it's my background in IPSC, which is very black and white on safety - actions are either "safe" or "unsafe", and there is no "unsafe-ish". I feel the same way about the concept of "stage DQs"... bad idea.

[RiggerJJ]

I guess I am not making myself clear. What I am advocating is not two tiered anything. I am saying the safety should be on or the gun empty. It is not a major safety violation if it isnt, so no DQ. Procedural only. As long as it was abandon safely muzzle down. If the act of abandonment was not safe or the gun was not left muzzle down in the container, DQ for unsafe gun handling.

[Benelli Chick]

I think what JJ is saying...I could get myself in trouble here...

The rules state that the gun needs to be empty or on safe. We place the abandonment barrels/buckets in a way so that is the gun is in them, muzzle down, the gun is pointed in a safe direction, the finger is off the trigger(no one is touching it), it is not pointed at anything you are not willing to destroy(the ground or the bottom of the bucket) and it's being treated like it's loaded!

That would be the big safety rules we have all agreed to throughout shooting.

So, the gun is now safe. HOWEVER, you did not follow stage procedure in not putting your safety on when there is still ammo in the gun...so you get a procedural.

When JJ said a second layer...we can argue all day (and beyond as you can see in this thread) about the differences between a Glock and a 1911 for what we call "safe" conditions...but the truth is, muzzle down, 1911 safety off is not substantially different than glock muzzle down...so requiring the safety be put on safe or empty is a preferred condition to add a layer of safety over and above safe. This second layer is more for when you come back to clear it. Most guns (not my Tanfoglio) require you to take the safety off to rack the slide anyway...and now your hands are on it and your finger is around the trigger area!!! The gun can be a lot more unsafe now than it was when it was sitting there all alone muzzle down with no one touching it!

The on safe or empty rule, makes the shooter more aware! If you just got a 30 second penalty, you are even more careful to unload and show clear and there is no "casual" attitude about clearing the gun! RO and shooter alike are watching that sucker like it is going to go off by itself! Everyone looks for the safety to be on with every gun! Awareness and attention are focused on the safety and therefore safety!

JJ and I work very hard to have abandonment in a safe direction, so there is no "less safe" here! I have seen abandonment positions with muzzle up in a corner, on the table where it can swing around, etc. Those positions are unsafe! If the gun does go off by itself...well, that's the end of the match at that range. If a gun pointed in a safe direction (because the barrel allows nothing else) goes off, well we all may need to change our underwear and stealthy is right, there may be rocks thrown up, but no one will be shot!

Whew, that got long winded! (Surprise, surprise!)

Denise

[Nik Habicht]

USPSA allows traditional DA/SA pistols to be holstered when decocked only - there is no requirement for the safety to be on when the pistol is decocked, even if the gun is fitted with one. M&P is different because it is fully cocked - closer in mechanical function to a single-action. Only M&Ps that do not come with a safety at all can be holstered without applying the safety. I think the same would actually be true of a 1911 if it was built without a thumb safety (feel free to check with Amidon), though this might fall afoul of rule 5.1.6.

Don't shoot the messenger here - I don't write the rules, I just enforce them.

All M&Ps are subject to the same requirements according to the rulebook -- the presence of an additional safety on one model versus another one not having it, doesn't change those requirements.....

There's no requirement to flip the thumb safety on, on M&Ps so equipped that I can find.....

[StealthyBlagga]

I guess I am not making myself clear. What I am advocating is not two tiered anything. I am saying the safety should be on or the gun empty. It is not a major safety violation if it isnt, so no DQ. Procedural only. As long as it was abandon safely muzzle down. If the act of abandonment was not safe or the gun was not left muzzle down in the container, DQ for unsafe gun handling.

OK, gotcha.

[StealthyBlagga]

USPSA allows traditional DA/SA pistols to be holstered when decocked only - there is no requirement for the safety to be on when the pistol is decocked, even if the gun is fitted with one. M&P is different because it is fully cocked - closer in mechanical function to a single-action. Only M&Ps that do not come with a safety at all can be holstered without applying the safety. I think the same would actually be true of a 1911 if it was built without a thumb safety (feel free to check with Amidon), though this might fall afoul of rule 5.1.6.

Don't shoot the messenger here - I don't write the rules, I just enforce them.

All M&Ps are subject to the same requirements according to the rulebook -- the presence of an additional safety on one model versus another one not having it, doesn't change those requirements.....

There's no requirement to flip the thumb safety on, on M&Ps so equipped that I can find.....

I would have applied USPSA 8.1.2.4. However, the treatment of the non-safety M&P and other "safe action" pistols as DAO confounds the issue. I have just emailed John Amidon for clarification.

UPDATE: You are correct. Per John Amidon, the distinction is whether the gun is "striker fired" versus "hammer fired". To me, this seems like no distinction at all - it sounds suspiciously like splitting hairs in order to fit the square peg safe-action guns into the round hole of USPSA definitions. Nevertheless, it is DNROIs ruling.

Edited April 20, 2012 by StealthyBlagga

[SinistralRifleman]

Most DQ offenses are extensions of violations of the 4 basic rules that apply everywhere and all the time. These are the most serious firearms rules.

1) Treat every firearm as if it is loaded

2) Never let the muzzle cover anything you are not willing to destroy

3) Finger off the trigger until you are ready to fire.

4) Be sure of your target and what is beyond it

Dropped gun = rules 1 and 2

ND in the range = rule 3

ND over the berm = rule 4

180 violation = stricter rule 2

So a gun muzzle down in a bucket is violating which of the 4 basic rules?

I don't necessarily have a problem with this, provided the gun does not discharge. However, even a gun muzzle-down in a barrel could throw debris (rocks etc) in unsafe directions if it discharged. More disconcerting, a lot of the faster guys push the endge of the envelope by literally THROWING their gun into the barrel, and I am not sure this is wise with a rifle that has a <2lb single-action trigger without the safety applied. Watch the video of Nils getting DQd on Stage 2 at SMM3G... we are ALL lucky that he applied the safety catch before abandoning that rifle.

Even with the safety on some long guns can still discharge if given enough of a shock. Several popular shotgun models come to mind. Throwing the guns into barrels is more of a safety issue than a loaded gun being left in a barrel. Maybe rules need to state that the shooter must have at least one hand touching the firearm until it touches the base of the grounding barrel, but that seems like it would be hard to enforce.

The bigger question to me is if people are becoming too aggressive/reckless in the handling of firearms because speed abandoning firearms is seen as a critical component of stage performance, maybe its time to re-evaluate the way stages are run and if we should be testing how fast people can throw guns into barrels and grab another one?

[Blockhead]

One of the lessons we learned at last year's MG Nationals was that it helped to design the COF so that a target or two were only visible from the area close by the dump and/or pick-up. It forces the shooter to engage a target immediately before dumping or immediately after retreival. Pete did a great job incorporating this idea into the 2012 MG Nat's.