Wakal Posted July 6, 2004 Share Posted July 6, 2004 Perhaps I'm not reading this right. Anyone care to 'splain it to me? (new) Shotgun rules, section 5.2.5.3. Unless specified in the written stage briefing, or unless required by a Range Officer, the position of allied equipment must not be moved or changed by a competitor during a match. Any belt, or belts, intended to be used at any time during a match, must be worn for the start of each stage of the match. This rule is not intended to prevent a cartridge belt being moved around the body to allow easier access to cartridges during a course of fire. The "provisional multigun" rules directly derive their authority from the pistol, rifle, and shotgun rules (see Section B of said provisional rules). Those rules mention where there are CHANGES from the basic rules...but do not change Shotgun rule 5.2.5.3. Umm...OK. That means that I can't reconfigure my belt for a shotgun/pistol stage, or take the pistol holster off for a pure shotgun stange, or....move "any allied equipment" during a match. Period. Lets recap: according to the existing (shotgun) rules, a competitor may NOT adjust his gear, change the location of gear, or remove/replace gear during a match. So...everyone who took off their shotgun speedloader holster during the 3-Gun Nationals, or anyone who took the forearm shell holder off their, well, forearm...is guilty of violating this rule. From talking to competitors, it seems that this rule was NOT ENFORCED at the 3-Gun Nationals. Which, IMO, is a good thing because it seems silly....but in USPSA, we are not allowed to pick and choose which rules we like. We have to play by (and exploit ) our rules as written. Otherwise we would be, well, IDPA Does anyone else think that this is a silly rule that, however intentioned, should be removed? Alex Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Norman Posted July 6, 2004 Share Posted July 6, 2004 In a USPSA 3-Gun where traditionally we shot only one gun per stage, I would think it is essentilly unenforcable, unless we were to go the IPSC route of gear cards where everything is checked off on each stage. Could one assume that Your shotgun gear is worn the same all the way through the match, same for Rifle and Pistol, but eah is worn only wen required? THat at least makes some sense. Otherwise, as you say, you have to gear up for all three guns all the way trhough the match. Either way is Ok as long as we all play by the rules. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted July 6, 2004 Share Posted July 6, 2004 If that is the rule...then it's got to go. No way that will be enforced from match to match. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vince Pinto Posted July 6, 2004 Share Posted July 6, 2004 If that is the rule...then it's got to go. No way that will be enforced from match to match. If you're talking of a single gun match (e.g. HG only or SG only), what's wrong with the rule? If, for argument's sake, you shoot Open Division with a "crotch rocket" holster, why should you be permitted to move your holster away from the "Nutcracker" position (or remove it entirely) for a stage which requires you to go prone? If we allow those sort of changes to competitor equipment, we might as well allow competitors to fix ultra wide slide-rackers when the gun is required to start "flat" on a table top, or to add and remove scopes as required, and so on. If you're talking about the provisional MG rules, they will require special dispensation, because you obviously can't be expected to wear three rigs for the duration of a MG match, and you should bring this anomaly to the attention of Bruce Gary, who I understand is leading the charge on the MG rule amendments. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Norman Posted July 6, 2004 Share Posted July 6, 2004 I think that there is a world of difference between moving my holster so it won't endanger future generations and modifiying a firearm to suit a stage. We don't treat the entire match as one encounter. What is wrong with gearing to suit the conditions presented? That having been said, I will be attending a match that allows no resupply fom the time you leave your car in the AM till you return at night. You will carry all your ammo and all your gear while you shoot. Day one Rifle and Pistol 300 Rounds Rifle and 50 Pistol, Day two, shotgun and Pistol. And it is going to be hot! In actuallity, why can't I set up my gun as stage conditins require? Look at the M4 Kit that the SF guys have at their disposal now, misson specific set-ups. Can't say that ain't practical. Jim Norman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted July 6, 2004 Share Posted July 6, 2004 Vince, Take a read of Alex's post. I'm think this thread is devoted to multi-gun matches...but, I wouldn't mind drifting into the points that you brought up (after the original question is addressed). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neil Beverley Posted July 6, 2004 Share Posted July 6, 2004 I support the rule for single gun matches but can absolutely see sense in allowing the rule to be over-ridden in MG. I would guess it's been overlooked so far but as Bruce has pointed out on more than one occassion the MG rules are a trial set and I'm sure he will be taking note. Anyone who has ever been involved in the process will tell you it doesn't matter how hard you try some stuff can slip by. There are around 550 rules in the IPSC rule book, per discipline, if I remember correctly, and about 150 of these are different across the 3 disciplines. Human nature being what it is people focus on the 5 or 6 rules that they don't like and barely mention the rest. C'est la vie. Finally I would mention, that contrary to the urban myth about the rule book getting bigger the IPSC 2004 Shotgun rule book dropped by around 60 words. I seem to recall that Vince had similar statistics for the handgun rule book. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vince Pinto Posted July 6, 2004 Share Posted July 6, 2004 Take a read of Alex's post. I'm think this thread is devoted to multi-gun matches...but, I wouldn't mind drifting into the points that you brought up (after the original question is addressed). Actually Alex mentions both the provisional MG Rules and the USPSA "3-Gun Nationals", however they are two entirely different beasts - the former is a new concept (for the USPSA) while the latter is a Tournament. As you know, the component matches of a 3-Gun Tournament each use a single, dedicated rulebook, and competitor equipment cannot be moved or removed in discipline specific matches but, as I already stated, there should obviously be special dispensation in the provisional MG rules. I think that there is a world of difference between moving my holster so it won't endanger future generations and modifiying a firearm to suit a stage. I couldn't agree more, but Rule 5.2.5.3 takes care of the former. I believe the issue at hand is the latter and how it currently continues to apply to the provisional MG rules. I presume this is just a simple oversight which can be easily corrected during the ongoing fine-tuning of the PMG rules. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Norman Posted July 6, 2004 Share Posted July 6, 2004 Unless I am mistaken, the USPSA 3-Gun Nationals this year were run with Multi-Gun Stages. and I think they were run under the new MG ruleset. Anyone want to confirm? Jim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wakal Posted July 6, 2004 Author Share Posted July 6, 2004 Jim, that was exactly my (rather poorly defined) point. Vince, all props to da man and all (darn pimpify thread ), but you went off in the weeds with: "the provisional MG Rules and the USPSA "3-Gun Nationals", however they are two entirely different beasts." No, they are the SAME beast...the USPSA 3-Gun was run under the new MG rules. And one rule was very much not enforced. Neil, there are a lot of rules I don't like at all. However, since they were all (as well as I can tell) enforced EXCEPT this one... So, Bruce Gary is the lead dawg on this sled...hope he logs in to join the fun Alex Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vince Pinto Posted July 6, 2004 Share Posted July 6, 2004 No, they are the SAME beast...the USPSA 3-Gun was run under the new MG rules. Yo homie, wazzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzup? Confusion arises due to semantics. In simple terms, you can have: Plan A: a "3-Gun Match" (using the provisional MG rules), or Plan B: a "3-Gun Tournament" (using three separate rulebooks for three separate matches). But now I capish - the lira has finally dropped - you're referring to Plan A above. Got it. Having said all that, I think a better name for Plan A would be the "USPSA Multi-Gun Nationals". This would make it very clear from the name which rule set would be used. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted July 6, 2004 Share Posted July 6, 2004 Vince, Just to get everyone on the same page... Plan A and Plan B are one in the same at the moment (with regards to this question). Multi-gun used the SG rules. That will be a problem. No way in Hades that rule will be enforced at the local level for multi-gun...as it, apparently, wasn't enforced at the MG Nationals. Alex is sending up a red flag to the MG rules gurus that this one needs addressed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Norman Posted July 6, 2004 Share Posted July 6, 2004 Anyone who has ever been involved in the process will tell you it doesn't matter how hard you try some stuff can slip by. There are around 550 rules in the IPSC rule book, per discipline, if I remember correctly, and about 150 of these are different across the 3 disciplines. Human nature being what it is people focus on the 5 or 6 rules that they don't like and barely mention the rest. C'est la vie.Finally I would mention, that contrary to the urban myth about the rule book getting bigger the IPSC 2004 Shotgun rule book dropped by around 60 words. I seem to recall that Vince had similar statistics for the handgun rule book. Neil, You said there are 550 rules in the new book, about 150 of which are different in each discipline. That makes for 850 seperate rules to learn and one has to understand that "logic" may just as in law, play no part in what seems to be the rule. Your comment that the rules books shrunk by 60 words is a good start, another few hundred and we are on the right track. I think that we have too many rules at this point. My opinion and not to take away from the work of the various rule committes, but I think we need to work on simplification of the rules and rarther than a new sub-sub-sub rule for each possiblity, lump a bunch together and add the words"Or Similar" I know that leads to interpetation, but the proliferation of rules also leads to interpetation and to new members developing a glazed over look when confronted with the rules. In general, 90% of the rules in my opinion should have a logical path and should be almost intuitive. Yes, there are and will be and need to be those "Special Rules" that simply need their own chapter. We should keep in mind that most people just want to shoot and if we overburden them with rulebooks, we will lose them. One thing about gunowners, at least in the US is we are IN GENERAL an independent minded group that doesn't like to be told what to do beyond the minimum necessary. At least those of us that I know. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vince Pinto Posted July 6, 2004 Share Posted July 6, 2004 Plan A and Plan B are one in the same at the moment (with regards to this question). Multi-gun used the SG rules. That will be a problem. Understood but, for clarity, isn't the problem merely that an "exception" to the subject "you can't move your stuff" (shotgun, in this case) rule was inadvertently ommitted from the provisional MG rules? That's what I'm reading here, and I'm sure Bruce Gary can easily correct this oversight in his ongoing tweaking of the MG rules. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted July 7, 2004 Share Posted July 7, 2004 I hope that is the case...but, you never know. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ErikW Posted July 9, 2004 Share Posted July 9, 2004 This topic was over at Flexmoney's No way in Hades that rule will be enforced at the local level for multi-gun...as it, apparently, wasn't enforced at the MG Nationals.Alex is sending up a red flag to the MG rules gurus that this one needs addressed. If Bruce and other MG rules gurus are reading this thread, there's nothing more to be done. If they are not, concerned members should make USPSA officials aware of the problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted July 9, 2004 Share Posted July 9, 2004 Good point Erik. I split the "single-gun" equipment posts over to this thread: http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=14985 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Norman Posted July 9, 2004 Share Posted July 9, 2004 Ok, Having seen that we have split this, I have a question regarding 3-Gun and Multi-gun. IF we run a MULTI-gun match, we call it the USPSA Multi-Gun Nationals and some of the stages are Multi-Gun and some are one gun, which set of rules will we be running under? This is important, because if we allow movement of equipment in MG, but not in SG, we have to define MG as ANY match where the MG rules are used on ANY stage. Obviously a pure tournament where all the stages were one gun only would be under the individual divisional rules. Maybe. If therefore we were to run a 3-gun tournament where only one gun was used and also throw into the mix a few multigun stages, how would you handle that? Say 3 Rifle, 3 SG, 3 Pistol, 1 Rifle Pistol, 1 Rifle SG and 1 SG pistol stage? Makes for an interesting mix of rules, or not. Maybe we should decide that in the case where a 3-gun or a multigun format is used, the equipment can be moved or rearranged? I have my own ideas, some are here and some are now over on the other thread. Flex, with all due respect, I think that the movement of equipment is the movement of equipment and if it is allowed, then it is allowed and if it is not, then it is not. If we set up too many parameters as to when we can and cannot move equipment, the 60 word saving of the new rules will very quickly disappear We'll be up to our collective gunbelts in additional paragraphs and sub-sub paragraphs. Jim Norman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted July 9, 2004 Share Posted July 9, 2004 I would think that with a Multi-Gun match..run under multi-gun rules...the same rules would apply to each and every stage. We don't need to have a set of rules for one stage, then another set of rules for the next stage (that, for example, uses just the pistol). Flex, with all due respect, I think that the movement of equipment is the movement of equipment and if it is allowed, then it is allowed and if it is not, then it is not. If we set up too many parameters as to when we can and cannot move equipment, the 60 word saving of the new rules will very quickly disappear We'll be up to our collective gunbelts in additional paragraphs and sub-sub paragraphs. Jim, you lost me there. I hope that I didn't give the impression that I wanted extra rules??? As it stands...we have a set of pistol rules, they are set in stone for the next few years (but, we can discuss them on the other thread). This thread is talking about making an important revision to the provisional multi-gun rules. Which, clearly, needs addressed. (Seeing that the rule was ignored at the MG Nats...and it makes sense that it should be fixed.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Norman Posted July 9, 2004 Share Posted July 9, 2004 Flex, on the way home I gave this some more thought. I am not saying you are advocating additional rules. I am saying that we have a quagmire of rules regarding equipment placement and when it is or is not allowed to be moved. As it would seem to stand we have Provisional MG rules which SHOULD allow gear to be moved and single gun rules which for good or bad, currently do not. I think what we need to consider is: One set of guidelines. currently there are the two different postion rules in Pistol, the stand alone 3-gun rules (rifle and SG, since Pistol is already covered) and the MG rules. In Pistol I must wear my gear one particular way in Production and can pretty much do as I wish otherwise, but I can't move it stage to stage. In Rifle and SG I have the same consideration, wear it one way for the match, BUT we add in one mult-gun stage, A) it is no longer a 3-gun tournament, it is now a multi-gun MATCH and I will be able to move my gear around depending upon the requirements of the multi-gun stage. (There is another thread lurking here MG-Tournament. I will ask that in a new thread.) Now the interesting question, when the rules are amended can I move my gear stage to stage in a MG on stages that are single gun? and can I have a MG match where no stage has more than one gun? Jim Norman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
benny hill Posted July 10, 2004 Share Posted July 10, 2004 OH!! for the old day's, the 90's, when all you had to do was make sure the 3 guns were legal, wear what the hell you wanted, where you wanted, & the best man win's. Life was simple & matches more fun. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Norman Posted July 10, 2004 Share Posted July 10, 2004 Would it be discussing religion if I were to say "AMEN" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rhino Posted July 10, 2004 Share Posted July 10, 2004 I liked the old days when your divison was determined by your pistol, and your rifle and shotgun could be whatever you brought! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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