25 points penalty with a single shot ?

[Vince Pinto]

It's difficult to come up with a good number for the time allowed sometimes, so invariably a little testing is called for.

You betcha. It's not so bad at local matches, because you usually know the grading of likely competitors, but this is why you will never see an FT stage at, say, a World Shoot (or, dare I say it, even at the US Nationals??).

Can you imagine trying to set par times for Eric Grauffel and Joe D Grader from IPSC Guacamole? We either have to serve coffee and donuts to Eric between strings, or Joe just takes a zero and saves bullets.

[Jim Norman]

Actually you do see fixted time at eh US mNationals. Standards are Fixed time and they have a automated target presentation system. Nothing there till the beep, then they go away at the end of the time.

Jim

[Detlef]

when did you last see one at the Nats, Jim? I think it's a thing of the past... (regrettably, IMHO).

Don't we even have it in the rules that Standard Exercises are not permitted in Level 4 & 5 matches?

--Detlef

[Neil Beverley]

Don't we even have it in the rules that Standard Exercises are not permitted in Level 4 & 5 matches?

Detlef

You are correct as far as the 14th Edition rules are concerned. However, Mike Voigt and the other guys from the US in particular, requested that Standards be once again permitted at all match levels and this was subsequently agreed by the IPSC Committee. This applies to the 2004 rules.

2004 6.1.2 Standard Exercise – A course of fire consisting of more than one separately timed component strings. Scores, with any penalties deducted, are accumulated on completion of the course of fire to produce the final stage results. Standard Exercises must only be scored using Virginia Count or Fixed Time. The course of fire for each component string may require a specific shooting position, procedure and/or one or more mandatory reloads. Only one Standard Exercise of a maximum of 24 rounds is allowed in IPSC sanctioned Level IV or higher matches.

[Garfield]

Too bad !

[mactiger]

There will be a fixed time standards at this year's USPSA Pistol Nationals.

Troy

[Flexmoney]

I think there was a FT standards at the 2001 Limited Nats.

[Vince Pinto]

However, Mike Voigt and the other guys from the US in particular, requested that Standards be once again permitted at all match levels and this was subsequently agreed by the IPSC Committee.  This applies to the 2004 rules.

Neil is absolutely correct, but you have two choices with Standards - Virginia Count or Fixed Time. I guess I'm just surprised the US Nationals opted for FT, because you obviously need to set par at the lower end of the time scale for the better shooters, but this is presumably a bit much for D graders, who mightn't even get shots off within the time limit.

This is just a personal preference, but I would opt for VC, whereby every level can achieve the hits at their best pace. This probably won't change the end result, because a GM will still beat a D grader, but there would be a better feel-good factor for the latter ("Hey Mom, I got all Alphas but that Todd Jarrett dude whupped my ass on the time").

Your kinder, gentler course designer

[Jim Norman]

Is it about good skills or about how good we feel about our skill?

VC has one kind of preasure, FT another. I feel that FT is a more demanding course. You have to be quick and accurate. With VC, you need to be quick and accurate, but if you are slow, youcan beat a fast guy that can't hit for beans. FT, everyone has to go for it.

My opinion.

Jim Norman

[Nik Habicht]

Vince,

I disagree. Ever since I started in this sport, I've loved fixed time courses because my accuracy has always been good and there's NO penalties assessed for misses. If they provide five seconds to draw, shoot three rounds, reload and shoot another three, I'm going to take all five seconds to make sure I have three Alphas. Following this approach usually leads to a score that's within my class --- and I often pick up points on those shooters who try to get all the rounds off.

IMHO, Virginia count is worse on fifty yard standards because most lower class shooters will be hammered by miss penalties ---- often leading to a zero on the stage....

Jim,

I think you're wrong as well. If the shooter thinks about what his abilities are, fixed time is easier. I'll take a smaller quantity of certain A's over a larger quantity of uncertain hits any day of the week....

[Skywalker]

My honest opinion:

FT scoring should deal with time difficulty only. I mean time constraints, not time AND rounds.

You're a fast shot? You'll be best at FT stages. You're an accurate shot? You'll love Virginia Count. You're a well-rounded shooter? Comstock is where you'll excell.

I'd like not to cross-couple things.

Comstock scoring is to reward a competitor that balances DVC at its best.

Virginia Count scoring is to reward accuracy: if you miss, no make-ups.

Fixed Time scoring should reward speed: if you're fast, you'll be able to shoot (and score) more. No penalties for misses or extra shots/hits, there is already the time constrain to deal with.

Guess where Vis is rewarded?

Of course, since the basic principle of IPSC shooting is a balance among Diligentia, Vis, Celeritas, a good match should be based upon Comstock stages, with occasional Virginia and FT stages. E.G. in a 10 stages match, maybe 8 stages Comstock, 1 Virginia, 1 FT.

Does this make sense?

My 2c worth.

[Vince Pinto]

Sky,

For me, IPSC is all about Comstock, whereby your particular combination of speed versus accuracy determines your outcome at a match.

At any given World Shoot, I can easily get more Alphas than Eric Grauffel (bring a good book to read while you're waiting for me to finish), OR I can easily shoot every stage in a faster time than Eric Grauffel (bring 20 boxes of white patches, 20 boxes of black patches, but maybe only 10 single brown ones).

However Eric is IPSC Open Division World Champion because he has the optimum balance of speed and accuracy.

This is just my personal opinion, but I only like to use FT and VC stages for training purposes, not for major matches, however the rules allow them, so I will comply.