25 points penalty with a single shot ?

[Garfield]

Hi,

I was just reading the IPSC rulebook over again (yes I do that sometimes) and some rules with respect to Fixed Time Scoring puzzled me (again).

Let's assume we have a FT stage with 1 target at 5 meters away.

After the start signal the competitor must engage the target with 2 shots within 1.5 seconds.

Let's assume following happens:

After the start signal the competitor fires 3 shots, the third shot is out of time.

Upon scoring, the target shows 3 Alphas.

How much penalty to apply ?

Let's have a look at the rules :

9.4.5 In a Virginia Count or Fixed Time Course of Fire:

9.4.5.1 Extra shots (i.e. shots fired in excess of the number specified in a component string or stage), will each incur one procedural penalty. Additionally, during scoring, no more than the specified number and highest scoring hits will be awarded.

9.4.5.2 Extra hits (i.e. hits on the scoring area of scoring paper targets in excess of the total number specified in the stage), will each incur one procedural penalty. Note that hits on hard cover and/or penalty targets are not treated as Extra Hits.

9.4.6 In a Fixed Time Course of Fire:

9.4.6.1 Overtime shots (i.e. shots fired after the signal to cease fire has been given), will each be penalized the value of the maximum scoring hit available on that target, except in the case of disappearing targets.

9.4.5.1 yields -10 points,

9.4.5.2 yields another -10 points,

9.4.6.1 yields another -5 points. (This has been discussed and ruled upon in another thread).

At least, that is what I would deduct from said rules.

That is, three penalties to be applied for 1 shot fired !

But wait a minute, there is also this rule:

10.2.3 Where multiple penalties are assessed in the above cases, they must not exceed the maximum number of scoring hits that can be attained by the competitor. For example, a competitor who gains an advantage while faulting a Fault or Charge Line where only 4 metal targets are visible will receive 1 procedural penalty for each shot fired while faulting, up to a maximum of 4 procedural penalties, regardless of the number of shots actually fired.

Now what does "above cases" mean ? Is it limited to the rules 10.2.1 and 10.2.2 where the faulting of charge and fault lines is discussed ?

Or does it apply to a wider range of situations, such as the scenario outlined by me ? And if so, what would the appropriate total penalty be ?

[Dead Buff]

IMO 10.2.3 is applicable only to 10.2.1&2

The score for the above would be (2*5)-25 = (as per IPSC) 0

zero score even if you limit the penalties in this case....

will however withhold further comment until our rules masters have spoken.....

[mactiger]

Dead Buff is correct. The penalty for your scenario, Garfield, would be -25 points, as you noted. The other rule you cited (10.2.3) applies only for faulting.

However, it's important to note that most competitors in a fixed time course never get off more than the allowed number of shots. So, while it's possible to earn 25 penalty points with one shot, it's highly unlikely.

Troy

[Garfield]

Ah yes mr. McTiger,

But isn't this the place to discuss highly academic rules scenarios ?

Thanks for the input though !

I posted the same question in our NROI-only forum today, but then left out my guess and the appropriate rules, just to see what everybody makes of it.

[mactiger]

Ah yes mr. McTiger,

But isn't this the place to discuss highly academic rules scenarios ?

Absolutely! And, it's a good scenario for me to present in an upcoming Level 1 seminar, just to see what the students say.

(I hope none of them are reading this right now...)

Troy

[Neil Beverley]

I thought about starting a new thread rather than posting this here but then I decided it probably is relevant to this subject. However, Moderators, please feel free to split this off at your discretion.

I must also state that this isn't anything that IPSC has been discussing in any way. It is simply a query from me.

In IPSC rules, strings are scored, timed and taped separately. Strings in a Standard excercise can be scored separately as an option in the US variant of the rules.

In these cases is it necessary/desireable to insist that Fixed Time must be fixed number of rounds? Instead, if we give say 4 seconds, should the shooter be permitted to shoot as many rounds as they can within the 4 seconds? The number of scoring hits to be limited as in Comstock.

As far as penalties are concerned we would only be left with overtime shots and any hits on penalty targets. If adopted in conjuction with disappearing targets then scoring becomes very simple.

It could only be feasible if the strings are scored separately. Personally I quite like the idea of allowing fixed time to be either fixed rounds or unrestricted. Either or!

Edited

I would add that the IPSC Shotgun and Rifle Rules for 2002 and 2003 stated: "No restriction on the number of rounds that could be fired".

[Vince Pinto]

That is, three penalties to be applied for 1 shot fired !

Well, you were a very bad boy, because you broke three separate rules, so you deserve a severe spanking - you fired an extra round, you fired it late after the stop signal and then you went and got an extra Alpha. What do you expect, my boy? A discount ?

It's lucky you didn't cross the charge line while firing the three rounds, otherwise you might have a total of six penalties ................

[Skywalker]

Neil,

I like the idea.

I always thought that the difficulty of FT stages should have been a time limit.

For rounds limit we already have Virginia count.

[Vince Pinto]

Actually guys, the scenario given by Garfield is extreme and a highly unlikely one.

However if you consider a typical FT Standard Exercise, with two targets and multiple reducing distances, we need the "triple whammy" rules to deal with stacking and make up shots. A guy can miss T1 at 25 metres, then recover by firing five shots in a four shot string at 10 metres, with the extra shot being the Alpha he didn't get at 25 metres.

[Neil Beverley]

Vince

Isn't that why we changed the rules (IPSC) for Strings/Standards so it can't be done? What you shoot is what you get, per String.

But then we've already discussed the merits of our case!

[Garfield]

It's lucky you didn't cross the charge line while firing the three rounds, otherwise you might have a total of six penalties ............

No !

[Garfield]

But anyway, to close the first subject of this thread , are we all in agreement that 10.2.3 only applies to 10.2.1 and 10.2.2 ?

[Vince Pinto]

But anyway, to close the first subject of this thread , are we all in agreement that 10.2.3 only applies to 10.2.1 and 10.2.2 ?

Correct.

[Jim Norman]

Aren't Fixed Time Standards scored as Match Points? The time limit is set low enough that no one should be able to get all the shots off. THere is no HF to figure, just add up the points and subtract the penalties.

Or am I incorrcet?

Jim

[mactiger]

Jim, you are correct. Fixed time is scored as points shot, no hit factor or factoring of any kind is involved.

Troy

[Flexmoney]

So..a fixed time stage has less "weight" than other stages (unless the stage winner gets the max points available)?

[Vince Pinto]

So..a fixed time stage has less "weight" than other stages (unless the stage winner gets the max points available)?

Not neccessarily. It depends entirely on the composition of the match, the total number of points which are available, how many points the FT stage is worth, and how many points you achieved.

[mactiger]

As Vince says, FT stages are worth what they are worth--there really isn't any "weight" involved. You get the points you shot, less any penalties. If you can shoot a 120 point FT stage clean, then you'd get 120 points. Everybody gets the points they shot--they aren't factored against the best HF on the stage.

Does that make sense, or am I not explaining it thoroughly?

Troy

[Jim Norman]

You got it 100% as far as I know.

This is why the times are set short, no one should be able to get all the shots off and get all A's in the allowed time. If they could, then you would have to go to HF scoring or toss the stage.

Jim Norman

[Flexmoney]

Sorry, I was the one not being clear.

Take any other stage besides a FT. The stage winner gets 100% of the max stage points. If it is a 120 point stage...they get all 120 points for being the stage winner. That stage, regardless of how well (or poorly) it is shot, has a fixed weight of 120 points in the match.

With a FT stage, the weight of the stage is no longer fixed. It has a maximum weight of whatever the max points avaiable are (lets assume it is also a 120 point stage).

The only way a FT stage could recieve equal weighting, is if a shooter hit the max points. Even then, he would be the only one recieving the equal weighting...as the other shooters aren't given points on a percentage basis of the stage winner (as we do with non-FT stages).

If the top shooter, on the FT stage, gets 108 of the possible 120 points (or, anything less than the 120 points), then that stage carrys less weight in the match.

[Neil Beverley]

This is why the times are set short, no one should be able to get all the shots off and get all A's in the allowed time.

Sorry, Jim, but I slightly disagree.

I believe if the time is set right it should be just achievable for a very small handful of competitors, perhaps 5% of the competitors and not more than say 10%, i.e. GMs and maybe a couple of M Grades.

On the other hand I would agree that is is better for all to fail than for too many competitors to achieve the max points. It certainly should be set tight and deciding on the correct time can be quite tough for some, particularly if the stage is designed by a lower graded competitor. They tend to be too generous with the time they alot.

[Flexmoney]

For further clarity...

Lets assume, like most matches, we don't have a FT stage.

Each stage is worth whatever the max points are for that stage.

If we have 5 stages in a match, thus

Stage 1 - 80 pts

Stage 2 - 160 pts

Stage 3 - 90 pts

Stage 4 - 120 pts

Stage 5 - 40 pts

There is a total of (80+160+90+120+40=490) 490 points available in the match.

Each stage, therefore, has a certain percentage of the match points...it's weight...it's worth...how important it is in the match.

Stage 1, in this example, has a weight of 16.3% in the match.

That can figure into a shooters strategy. Heck, it can figure into their training (I might spend less time working on my draw, when working on movement could pay off more in a field couse with lots of points).

It's easy enough to say every point in a match counts...but, that is not quite accurate.

[mactiger]

Flex, I see what you mean. I often compare the method of determining HF, then Stage Factor, and multiplying each competitor's score by the SF to "grading on the curve", which it essentially is. You are correct: TF stages are not graded on the curve, so therefore they may not carry as much "weight" as other stages scored using hit factors--they may not be as valuable. Still, points is points, and it behooves each competitor to try to get as many as possible in a timed fire stage.

And, Jim and Neil have valid points: the thing is to design the stage so perhaps 5% of the competitors could get all their shots off in the time allotted, but they probably all won't shoot it cleanly. It's difficult to come up with a good number for the time allowed sometimes, so invariably a little testing is called for.

Of course, No-shoots and hard cover can be thrown in, just to add to the misery.

Troy

[Garfield]

Oh yeah, you mean like the third (overtime) shot in my scenario not hitting a target but a penalty target, or worse, the penalty target AND the normal target !

Hmm.... let's see:

-10 for extra shot

-10 for an extra hit

-5 for an overtime shot

-10 for the penalty target

Woohoo ! I can see the shooter already :

[Skywalker]

Woohoo ! I can see the shooter already :

Did you witness me shooting lately?