tactical, battle, Zombie killer

[DMAC]

I own all of the following and also highly recommend Noveske, LaRue, and JP. LaRue just announced the PredatOBR at Shot Show and one model with be a lightweight 556 with a 14.5" barrel a with pinned brake and adjustable gas block to run suppressed. This will be my next AR.

[Alaskapopo]

I really want a very good working rifle. Not for 3 gun ( maybe as backup only) . Call it tactical, battle, Zombie killer whatever. My criteria is Reliability first, high quality part that will run for a while. After some research this looked very nice http://www.jprifles.com/1.2.3_JP15VTAC.php I am thinking of just the upper I have a very nice pre-ban bushy lower I can use. Am I making a good choice or are their better options.

For real world use. Get Noveske, Larue, LMT, Colt, Daniel Defense, Bravo Company etc.

Pat

[BillD]

I always wondered about having a 3 gun AR that has functioned flawlessly for thousands of rounds, in a rough and tumble environment not being good enough for HD.

[Brian Payne]

Another vote for JP.

As good as anything else on the market.

[1911vm]

Just struck a deal with a board member. And I am getting a JP Vtac upper.

[PistoleroJesse]

For real world use. Get Noveske, Larue, LMT, Colt, Daniel Defense, Bravo Company etc.

If you want it to run out of the box and have little reservations about your purchase... +1

I always wondered about having a 3 gun AR that has functioned flawlessly for thousands of rounds, in a rough and tumble environment not being good enough for HD.

If you have the ammo to run 2k through it before you trust it ... +1

If a gun runs, it runs. Some take more work than others though

Not at all saying a JP won't run, just saying Colt and Bravo are should be on the shortlist for go to guns. Bravo offers quite a few uppers could be easily setup for 3 gun.

Here's a 18" SS 1:8 twist with a VTAC Troy Rail.

Local club only does 0-200 and hoser stages? They have 14.5" middies too.

Edited January 18, 2012 by PistoleroJesse

[smokshwn]

The JP15 line of rifles (the VT version is from this line) are bar none a fighting carbine. Although as has been mentioned there are many good rifles, I am sure you will find none better nor more reliable than JP. BTW Kyle doesn't exactly take lightly to putting his name and company on a product.

[1911vm]

For real world use. Get Noveske, Larue, LMT, Colt, Daniel Defense, Bravo Company etc.

If you want it to run out of the box and have little reservations about your purchase... +1

I always wondered about having a 3 gun AR that has functioned flawlessly for thousands of rounds, in a rough and tumble environment not being good enough for HD.

If you have the ammo to run 2k through it before you trust it ... +1

If a gun runs, it runs. Some take more work than others though

Actually my personnel process for every gun that I get, is not to limit myself two 2K ammo. I run the gun until it stops running. For example my last 1911 extractor broke at 5500k, my last rifle that I have been using for the past year and half or so using tulla 7.62 x 39 not an AR (very dirty but accurate ammo)now has about 3700 rounds. I do not clean, wipe and lube only. This could be not the best practice but it works for me. It also lets me know how far I can push the gun. I have been told that I should not do that to an AR, that it will not be able to handle it. I guess only one way to find out LOL.

Cannot wait for my Vtac upper to get here.

Edited January 19, 2012 by 1911vm

[Alaskapopo]

I would also suggest that you ask this question on a forum like www.m4carbine.net vs a competition oriented forum like this one. You will get different answers and quite frankly that forum is more specialized to answer the question you asked here.

Pat

[1911vm]

I would also suggest that you ask this question on a forum like www.m4carbine.net vs a competition oriented forum like this one. You will get different answers and quite frankly that forum is more specialized to answer the question you asked here.

Pat

Thanks I will do that. But to be honest I found just the opposite. A lot of the “tactical” forums that I followed for a while basically are couch commandos that do a lot of research, know a lot of stuff but not much out of personal knowledge. The best info I have ever received was, first of all from competitors who shot, practice and trainee more than most SWAT team members. And only special military teams get more training and have real life experience. Bruce Piate is one of the top competitors and instructors in this country, he is also a police officer and PD instructor. He is a better police officer because he is a competitive shooter. Sorry for my rambling just my thoughts.

[Alaskapopo]

I would also suggest that you ask this question on a forum like www.m4carbine.net vs a competition oriented forum like this one. You will get different answers and quite frankly that forum is more specialized to answer the question you asked here.

Pat

Thanks I will do that. But to be honest I found just the opposite. A lot of the “tactical” forums that I followed for a while basically are couch commandos that do a lot of research, know a lot of stuff but not much out of personal knowledge. The best info I have ever received was, first of all from competitors who shot, practice and trainee more than most SWAT team members. And only special military teams get more training and have real life experience. Bruce Piate is one of the top competitors and instructors in this country, he is also a police officer and PD instructor. He is a better police officer because he is a competitive shooter. Sorry for my rambling just my thoughts.

m4carbine is better than most (the moderators lock down people pretty quick for talking about things that they have no personal experience with) and they also have an ask the experts section where you can talk to trainers like Larry Vickers right on the forum. This is a great forum but its beter for advice on the game vs real world topics.

Also competitive shooting has helped me a lot with my job as a police officer and firearms instructor. So I agree with your point. Just when it comes to gear its best to go to those who make it their passion to know what works in that situation. If its the game that means this forum. If its real life then its m4carbine, lightfighter and a few others.

Pat

Edited January 19, 2012 by Alaskapopo

[1911vm]

I would also suggest that you ask this question on a forum like www.m4carbine.net vs a competition oriented forum like this one. You will get different answers and quite frankly that forum is more specialized to answer the question you asked here.

Pat

Larry Vickers has a lot of info i am actually hoping to take his class this year. Kyle Lamb does also, that is why I have settled on his design for a rifle. but I will check the site out thanks.

Thanks I will do that. But to be honest I found just the opposite. A lot of the “tactical” forums that I followed for a while basically are couch commandos that do a lot of research, know a lot of stuff but not much out of personal knowledge. The best info I have ever received was, first of all from competitors who shot, practice and trainee more than most SWAT team members. And only special military teams get more training and have real life experience. Bruce Piate is one of the top competitors and instructors in this country, he is also a police officer and PD instructor. He is a better police officer because he is a competitive shooter. Sorry for my rambling just my thoughts.

m4carbine is better than most (the moderators lock down people pretty quick for talking about things that they have no personal experience with) and they also have an ask the experts section where you can talk to trainers like Larry Vickers right on the forum. This is a great forum but its beter for advice on the game vs real world topics.

Also competitive shooting has helped me a lot with my job as a police officer and firearms instructor. So I agree with your point. Just when it comes to gear its best to go to those who make it their passion to know what works in that situation. If its the game that means this forum. If its real life then its m4carbine, lightfighter and a few others.

Pat

[Brian Payne]

When it comes to gear "that works", talk with people that shoot "a lot".

Nobody shoots more, or knows more about the shooting equipment that works (or doesn't work), than competition shooters.

[Alaskapopo]

When it comes to gear "that works", talk with people that shoot "a lot".

Nobody shoots more, or knows more about the shooting equipment that works (or doesn't work), than competition shooters.

Competion shooters know what works well in the context of the game in a controlled enviroment. If you take a carbine class and go through 1500 rounds in a weeks time and you will see a lot more equipment failures than you will see at match where you generally shoot 200 rounds through each weapon over 2 days. That has been my experience at least.

Now compare shootnig a match to real life where you may be in -30 below zero, blowing sand or snow etc. You get my point. Its not that one group is better than the other but there definately is a different mission needs for the equipment. Also I would submit the worlds best instructors who were members of the worlds most eliete military and LEO special teams know a hell of a lot more about what works in the real world. (not talking a three gun match) and what does not than even the best competition shooters. I have been out of gun calls in real life in weather than you would never dream of holding a match on and I had not know my equipment would work and I did because I trained in those conditions. Some on here are dillusional and think tha because they have some some matches they know all there is to know. Now when it comes to actually pulling the trigger, yes I admit the worlds best competition shooters are the best people to learn from. When it comes to knowing which guns and gear work in harse enviroments in the real world go to someone who has actually knows. I have seen people endorse certain brands (not naming names to avoid the flame wars) on here that I have seen choke over and over again in real world conditions (such as simple leo training). But for three gun matches they are generally fine. Two different worlds. Look at the types of guns. For example most people in real world applications are running shorter carbines with chrome lined bores because they meet the needs better for that applicaiton. For three gun you see 16 to 20 inch stainless barrels, adjustable gas systems, no buis, etcs. Its race cars vs Hummers.

While its true that the competition shooters deserve respect the same is true for the worlds best instructors like Larry Vickers and Pat Rogers.

Pat

Edited January 19, 2012 by Alaskapopo

[1911vm]

When it comes to gear "that works", talk with people that shoot "a lot".

Nobody shoots more, or knows more about the shooting equipment that works (or doesn't work), than competition shooters.

Competion shooters know what works well in the context of the game in a controlled enviroment. Its nothing like real life. Take a carbine class sometime and go through 1500 rounds in a weeks time and you will see a lot more equipment failures than you will see at match where you generally shoot 200 rounds through each weapon over 2 days. Its not even close. Now compare it to real life where you may be in -30 below zero, blowing sand or snow etc. You get my point. Its not that one group is better than the other but there definately is a different mission needs for the equipment. Also I would submit the worlds best instructors who were members of the worlds most eliete military and LEO special teams know a hell of a lot more about what works in the real world. (not talking a three gun match) and what does not than even the best competition shooters.

Pat

To the first part of your statement for that type of extreme weather need AK LOL

On the serious side you are correct. I totally agree with you that specialty team operators and instructors for these teams know a lot. I have friends in both fields of operations. The funny part is two of them that compete use JP rifles. I have a lot of respect and gratitude for what they do. But you are talking about a very small percentage of LEO and Military. And unless I know them personally or they are well known in the industry like Larry or Kyle, I simply do not believe what they say. I was borne in Russia I could tell you that I was special this or that and with a little reading on the internet make it sound very good, you have no way of checking. Competitors are much easier to check up on. Also there is quite a few civilian instructors who are competitors that trainee both LEO and Military specialty teams.

I think Kyle designed a very good in between rifle, a happy medium so this way I listened to competitors and the real world guys. Looks at the specs closely I think you will like it. It is in LEO section on the JP site

[Alaskapopo]

When it comes to gear "that works", talk with people that shoot "a lot".

Nobody shoots more, or knows more about the shooting equipment that works (or doesn't work), than competition shooters.

Competion shooters know what works well in the context of the game in a controlled enviroment. Its nothing like real life. Take a carbine class sometime and go through 1500 rounds in a weeks time and you will see a lot more equipment failures than you will see at match where you generally shoot 200 rounds through each weapon over 2 days. Its not even close. Now compare it to real life where you may be in -30 below zero, blowing sand or snow etc. You get my point. Its not that one group is better than the other but there definately is a different mission needs for the equipment. Also I would submit the worlds best instructors who were members of the worlds most eliete military and LEO special teams know a hell of a lot more about what works in the real world. (not talking a three gun match) and what does not than even the best competition shooters.

Pat

To the first part of your statement for that type of extreme weather need AK LOL

On the serious side you are correct. I totally agree with you that specialty team operators and instructors for these teams know a lot. I have friends in both fields of operations. The funny part is two of them that compete use JP rifles. I have a lot of respect and gratitude for what they do. But you are talking about a very small percentage of LEO and Military. And unless I know them personally or they are well known in the industry like Larry or Kyle, I simply do not believe what they say. I was borne in Russia I could tell you that I was special this or that and with a little reading on the internet make it sound very good, you have no way of checking. Competitors are much easier to check up on. Also there is quite a few civilian instructors who are competitors that trainee both LEO and Military specialty teams.

I think Kyle designed a very good in between rifle, a happy medium so this way I listened to competitors and the real world guys. Looks at the specs closely I think you will like it. It is in LEO section on the JP site

I agree the best are those that do both. Your also right that the vast majority of typical LEO's and soldiers don't know as much as they should about their gear. At a leo three gun match this summer I actually saw some Airsoft stuff on one of the guys rifles. I would expect that at a club level three gun match but not at a cop match. Anyway stay safe it was a good discusison.

pat

Edited January 20, 2012 by Alaskapopo

[ranger]

I am very pleased with my S&W M&P AR15 in the VTAC version. CDNN is running a special on them and S&W will give you a $100 rebate if your are MIL or LEO. The S&W M&P VTAC come with a lot of upgrades. I have carried MIL issue M16 and M4 for decades and I was very please with the S&W M&P VTAC model.

[1911vm]

pleasure was all mine . maybe will get to gather for a beer, planning a trip to Alaska next year not sure what and were.

[Alaskapopo]

pleasure was all mine . maybe will get to gather for a beer, planning a trip to Alaska next year not sure what and were.

Let me know when and I could let you know when the local matches are and loan you some guns. I host one in July.

Pat

[1911vm]

Let me know when and I could let you know when the local matches are and loan you some guns. I host one in July.

Pat

AK of course. LOL

[Red_SC]

Just struck a deal with a board member. And I am getting a JP Vtac upper.

You didn't go wrong.

I shot a carbine class with my CTR02 last weekend, mostly because I wanted to see how it would do hot and dirty. I ended up shooting around 800 rounds, and it was used as a range gun to clear instructor-induced malfunctions by the whole class, so it had at least 1000 total. I didn't relube, and the only stoppage not created by the instructors was my fault, I was shooting weak handed from behind a barricade and managed to cover the ejection port.