Shoot a swinger before it's activated?

[Graham Smith]

I'd like to reopen this topic with a slightly different twist. As a rule my club tries to stick with stage designs that would be legal in a level II match. But some moving targets can be a bit of a PITA to setup sometimes. For example, if you have a dropout (out and back) target you may have to put up two or three no-shoots so that someone cannot see a portion of the target before it's activated. As a result, once it has been activated, then you can end up with a very narrow window where the target may be engaged. Sometimes, this is OK but more often than not, it just wastes a lot of time fiddling with target positions during setup - and setup time is limited.

So, the question becomes, is there any good reason why a level I match shouldn't take advantage of 9.9.4 and require movers to be activated before being shot?

[bikerburgess]

I am not a big fan of the level 1 match exemption, but this is one area I don't mind using it as long as some attempt has been made to block the target. On the other hand, I really don't like it when a swinger is just sitting there totally open with nothing even trying to block it in its un-activated position and the wsb says it must be activated first, you end up with too many people shooting it without thinking because "it was just sitting there"

Mike

[Graham Smith]

... I really don't like it when a swinger is just sitting there totally open with nothing even trying to block it in its un-activated position and the wsb says it must be activated first, ...

I agree there - I was thinking in terms of putting the usual no-shoot in front just the same. This would be pretty much mandatory with a drop out or no one would bother trying to shoot it when it swung out. And for a swinger, the no-shoot is a valuable reminder. But both would be a heck of a lot simpler to set up that way.

[Flexmoney]

GS, using the example of a swinger that is activated by a popper....

If the swinger is exposed in any way, I can nearly always hit the popper and then get on the swinger before it starts actually moving. (many can, as it often takes a full second before it gets going after hitting the popper)

So, for many, it will be as if the swinger is a static target anyway...whereas, underclassmen might have to deal with it as a mover. Just something to keep in mind.

Also, with the same setup, if you have a shooter that hits the popper, engaged the mover, then we later realize that the popper didn't actually fall... you might get stuck with having to make a goofy call based on that.

[remoandiris]

At level 1 matches I am involved with setting up, we almost always have a 55 gallon plastic drum(s) blocking the view of the swinger in it's unactivated position. If not a drum, something else. We never leave them exposed. Just our preference. We don't have drop outs.

[Nik Habicht]

Poppers are mediocre ways to activate movers -- they're probably best in fixed position short courses.....

Doors and ports are better activators....

[Graham Smith]

So, for many, it will be as if the swinger is a static target anyway...whereas, underclassmen might have to deal with it as a mover. Just something to keep in mind.

That had passed through the edge of my mind but I didn't think much about it. I guess this is a case where understanding what the phrase "prior to activation" means.

I would have thought that it means that the moving target would have to have started moving. Until the popper falls and the cable is pulled and the stick is dislodged and the target stars moving, the target has not been activated. After all, a swinger fails to start swinging for any reason, that's a range equipment failure. It can't be argued that because the popper was hit the target was activated.

But I still see where you are going. A good shooter may be able to stand back at 45ft and hit a popper down range then shoot the target before it start swinging and, as long as it does start to swing no one's likely to penalize them for it. I suppose that could be an issue but it's not going to cause me to lose much sleep. If something were that much of a probability then I'd put up one extra no shoot or sight barrier. But it's something to keep in mind.

[sperman]

I guess this is a case where understanding what the phrase "prior to activation" means.

I would have thought that it means that the moving target would have to have started moving. Until the popper falls and the cable is pulled and the stick is dislodged and the target stars moving, the target has not been activated.

I'm not sure everyone would agree with you. Check out this thread.

http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=94956&st=0&p=1087703&hl=activated&fromsearch=1entry1087703

[Flexmoney]

Yeah...when does a train start moving? When the engine starts, or when all the slack is out of the couplings and the last car starts to move?

So, there you go... more stuff to deal with if you set it up it can be seen.

[Steven Cline]

If it is a level II match or above you must active it before you shoot it. If it is a level I match, you could shoot it before activating it, unless the stage briefing prohibits it.

9.9.3 Moving scoring targets will always incur failure to shoot at and miss

penalties if a competitor fails to activate the mechanism which initiates

the target movement.

9.9.4 Level I matches only - If the written stage briefing prohibits the

engagement of certain targets prior to activation, the competitor will

incur one procedural penalty per shot fired at such targets prior to operating

the activating mechanism, up to the maximum number of available

hits (see Rule 2.1.8.5.1).

Mark K

Mark,

Double check that. If it's visible at a Level II match, it can be engaged at anytime, and you may NOT stipulate that the activator must be activated prior to engagement.

At a Level I match, you MAY designate that a swinger must be activated before engagement, but if the stage briefing does not state it - you are free to shoot it.

Shortened = Level II and up - it's engageable if it's visible at rest.

Level I - Unless specified in the stage briefing, it's engageable if it's visible.

Very well explained!!

[Nik Habicht]

So, for many, it will be as if the swinger is a static target anyway...whereas, underclassmen might have to deal with it as a mover. Just something to keep in mind.

That had passed through the edge of my mind but I didn't think much about it. I guess this is a case where understanding what the phrase "prior to activation" means.

I would have thought that it means that the moving target would have to have started moving. Until the popper falls and the cable is pulled and the stick is dislodged and the target stars moving, the target has not been activated. After all, a swinger fails to start swinging for any reason, that's a range equipment failure. It can't be argued that because the popper was hit the target was activated.

But I still see where you are going. A good shooter may be able to stand back at 45ft and hit a popper down range then shoot the target before it start swinging and, as long as it does start to swing no one's likely to penalize them for it. I suppose that could be an issue but it's not going to cause me to lose much sleep. If something were that much of a probability then I'd put up one extra no shoot or sight barrier. But it's something to keep in mind.

That's why I prefer moving targets to be activated by things like doorways or ports.....

Never mind, that unless you're using something like the Ruoff attachments for poppers, popper activation is fraught with problems.....

[ctay]

Point of clarification - I understand that a swinger that is visible at rest is fair game at level 2+. Does that hold true for a drop turner as well? IE if I can hit a drop turner from the side without breaking the 180 BEFORE it is activated is that permissible?

[EkuJustice]

Yes if you can see it you can shoot it in level2 and above(level 1 also unless they use the exception). It also does not say that the target has to be even activated on the clock as long as its activated. For example, if there is a sole moving target with a foot activator that is WAY out of the way and you can see it and shoot it stationary you can shoot it as such and finish out the COF. After you hit the last shot, you could stroll back over there with the gun in a safe direction and activate the target during the COF. The timer stopped on the last shot though

[ctay]

Sorry - one more. What if the Drop turner was facing away from you- IE the side you can see before it drops is the back of the target? Can I shoot it from back to front and have the hits count?

[Nik Habicht]

Sorry - one more. What if the Drop turner was facing away from you- IE the side you can see before it drops is the back of the target? Can I shoot it from back to front and have the hits count?

Not if you want the hits to count......

9.5.8 Hits visible on a scoring paper target or no-shoot, which are the result of shots fired through the rear of the target or no-shoot, will not count for score or penalty, as the case may be.