Stacked Shots

[Sarge]

I have several rules discussions lined up this week. Let me first point out that the squad I was on today was the usual great group of shooters. Many of them I consider friends. I am in no way trying to call anybody out, etc.. Like I have said before, nearly every match has some type of rules question pop up. I made some calls today that were questioned by some and agreed to by others. (Kind of like what happens here)

The first round will discuss stacked shots.

9.4.5.3

Stacked shots (i.e. obviously shooting more than the required

rounds on a target(s) while shooting other target(s) with fewer

shots than specified in any string), will incur one procedural

penalty per target insufficiently engaged in any string. This

penalty will not be applied if the written stage briefing specifically authorizes stacked shots.

On a Virginia count classifier stage which required three strings of one shot on each target a shooter apparently missed target two and the round hit target one again. On string two he apparently put two into target two. As the RO running the timer I tend to watch the gun, shooter, feet etc, NOT always the targets. After the three strings were fired I heard somebody comment something like "Stacker" and another comment along the lines of, "I'm anxious to see how this gets scored". Since I did NOT see the shots/targets in question I felt I had no choice but to score the targets as I saw them. Of course, just like every other level I match the score keeper is not generally up to speed on their duties, i.e., watching targets/shots/hits, etc.

After coming home and reading the rulebook it occured to me that discussion might be helpful to myself and other RO's who might end up in this position.

The part of the rule that grabbed my attention is "target insufficiently engaged". I think we will end up in the age old debate over what engaged means here. From watching the shooters body I know he engaged (shot at) each of the six targets in succession but apparently missed one wide left.

One thing I am wondering about is, on longer range targets what is the best way to verify hits on correct targets? You can't go down range each string certainly. I don't like making bad calls but I like even less making calls on something I did not actually see.

[SteveU]

My personal opinion from the peanut gallery:

WSB says engage T1-T6 with only one shot.

IF the competitor engaged 6,5,4,3,1,1 on one string and 2,2,3,4,5,6 on another string I would award 2 procedurals (one per string) for stacking per the rule you quoted.

To get into whether the first was a wide miss and the second was a makeup (one procedural in that case?) is too much like trying to read the shooters mind. So I don't think you call T2 engaged on the first string - especially because you have to score the hit on T1. (did he engage both with one shot?)

Having said that I wouldn't change anything after the fact in this case.

I don't know how you would do anything different as RO without a scorekeeper to watch hits.

Maybe look at targets between strings but on a long distance stage where you can't see the holes ... ?? Score each string?

Just one man's HYPOTHETICAL opinion.

Edited October 24, 2011 by Surge

[ihatepickles]

Virginia Count stages require the RO and scorekeeper to really be on the ball. I think it requires a 2 minute chat prior to starting the stage with all the RO/scorekeepers on the squad to get on the same page. I know there's a lot of volunteerism at the club matches and often the scorekeeper isn't 100% sure where they should be looking, that's sometimes true of ROs too.

That said, in your case you have to score what you saw on paper after the CoF if you weren't able to observe the stacked shots.

[Graham Smith]

I agree with the Pickle hater about volunteers - it's tough to deal something like this with at local matches. First off, RO's and scorekeepers need to understand exactly how to score VC stages, particularly when there are procedural's involved. I'm pretty sure that some of them do not fully understand the nuances of things like Extra Shot and Extra Hit - and I've seen the scoresheets to prove it.

Virginia count stages are difficult enough to score without having to deal with stacking, but what it comes down to is that the scorekeeper should be watching the hits as best as they can. That said, I would not be a good person to have as a scorekeeper on this kind of stage unless I had bifocals on.

[Flexmoney]

The part of the rule that grabbed my attention is "target insufficiently engaged". I think we will end up in the age old debate over what engaged means here.

Don't forget the "...in any string" part of that rule. That seems to be key.

(thanks for posting this one...I needed to read it)

[matgyver]

Forgive my ignorance. What would be the advantage of stacking shots, if any.

If shooting Virginia count only the allowed hits available by round count would score.?.? Right?

So if you stack, you willingly miss another target...this would be a miss -10 and the extra hit would not score.

[Skydiver]

Forgive my ignorance. What would be the advantage of stacking shots, if any.

If shooting Virginia count only the allowed hits available by round count would score.?.? Right?

So if you stack, you willingly miss another target...this would be a miss -10 and the extra hit would not score.

As a blatant example of gaining an advantage by stacking. Consider CM 99-61 Sit or Get Off the Shot.

If it's only the hits on paper that count, and stacking is allowed:

String 1: Freestyle: Shoot T1 with 3 shots, and then T2 with 1 shot.

String 2: Strong hand: Shoot T2 with 2 shots, and then T3 with 2 shots.

String 3: Weak hand: Shoot T3 with 1 shot, and then T4 with 3 shots.

I believe that I can get better times and hits by stacking this way. Even if one procedural was applied for not following the stage procedure of engaging targets a specified, I think it may still be worth it for the time gained and points... at least at my current skill level where transitions are slow, and weak hand shots at small targets are iffy.

[ima45dv8]

Forgive my ignorance. What would be the advantage of stacking shots, if any.

If shooting Virginia count only the allowed hits available by round count would score.?.? Right?

So if you stack, you willingly miss another target...this would be a miss -10 and the extra hit would not score.

As a blatant example of gaining an advantage by stacking. Consider CM 99-61 Sit or Get Off the Shot.

If it's only the hits on paper that count, and stacking is allowed:

String 1: Freestyle: Shoot T1 with 3 shots, and then T2 with 1 shot.

String 2: Strong hand: Shoot T2 with 2 shots, and then T3 with 2 shots.

String 3: Weak hand: Shoot T3 with 1 shot, and then T4 with 3 shots.

I believe that I can get better times and hits by stacking this way. Even if one procedural was applied for not following the stage procedure of engaging targets a specified, I think it may still be worth it for the time gained and points... at least at my current skill level where transitions are slow, and weak hand shots at small targets are iffy.

Maybe, but by giving up half of the available points tp penalties, it seems unlikely.

However, if that really would improve your score, take two asprin, dry-fire every day and call me in three months.

[Skydiver]

Forgive my ignorance. What would be the advantage of stacking shots, if any.

If shooting Virginia count only the allowed hits available by round count would score.?.? Right?

So if you stack, you willingly miss another target...this would be a miss -10 and the extra hit would not score.

As a blatant example of gaining an advantage by stacking. Consider CM 99-61 Sit or Get Off the Shot.

If it's only the hits on paper that count, and stacking is allowed:

String 1: Freestyle: Shoot T1 with 3 shots, and then T2 with 1 shot.

String 2: Strong hand: Shoot T2 with 2 shots, and then T3 with 2 shots.

String 3: Weak hand: Shoot T3 with 1 shot, and then T4 with 3 shots.

I believe that I can get better times and hits by stacking this way. Even if one procedural was applied for not following the stage procedure of engaging targets a specified, I think it may still be worth it for the time gained and points... at least at my current skill level where transitions are slow, and weak hand shots at small targets are iffy.

Maybe, but by giving up half of the available points tp penalties, it seems unlikely.

However, if that really would improve your score, take two asprin, dry-fire every day and call me in three months.

Yup, that's why I said if the stacking was allowed and allowing for only one procedural: 60 available points down to 50 points. The hit factor still seems to be acceptable if I can shave of 5-6 seconds from the total time, as well as guarantee better hits. 60 points down to 30 points, on the other hand definitely gives up too much.

LOL! How did you know that I now need the aspirin to dry-fire now that arthritis is kicking in? :-)

[KermitShooter]

Kevin; I will chime in on this one, on a Virginia count stage, extra shots are penalized or lack of shots is penalized at the shooting box. Misses or extra hits are penalized at the targets. Now for the kicker, did the shooter fail to follow the written stage briefing by not engaging each target with one round during each string? Penalize accordingly. Don

[EkuJustice]

Whats fun are the comstock stages where it has freestyle reload then weakhand. You could shoot every shot freestyle then reload and blaze 2 in the general area of each weakhand as that is not considered stacking. Migh work well for long tight shots

[ima45dv8]

LOL! How did you know that I now need the aspirin to dry-fire now that arthritis is kicking in? :-)

I didn't, and I'm sorry to hear it.

Ouch.

[matgyver]

Forgive my ignorance. What would be the advantage of stacking shots, if any.

If shooting Virginia count only the allowed hits available by round count would score.?.? Right?

So if you stack, you willingly miss another target...this would be a miss -10 and the extra hit would not score.

As a blatant example of gaining an advantage by stacking. Consider CM 99-61 Sit or Get Off the Shot.

If it's only the hits on paper that count, and stacking is allowed:

String 1: Freestyle: Shoot T1 with 3 shots, and then T2 with 1 shot.

String 2: Strong hand: Shoot T2 with 2 shots, and then T3 with 2 shots.

String 3: Weak hand: Shoot T3 with 1 shot, and then T4 with 3 shots.

I believe that I can get better times and hits by stacking this way. Even if one procedural was applied for not following the stage procedure of engaging targets a specified, I think it may still be worth it for the time gained and points... at least at my current skill level where transitions are slow, and weak hand shots at small targets are iffy.

Maybe, but by giving up half of the available points tp penalties, it seems unlikely.

However, if that really would improve your score, take two asprin, dry-fire every day and call me in three months.

So what y'all is sayin is that there is no advantage? (unless you don't get caught) Or is my reading comprehension lacking?

Maybe we should quit gaming and just worry about getting better at shooting?

Edited October 25, 2011 by matgyver

[Skydiver]

Also consider the classifier CM 99-08 Melody Line.

Let's say as I shoot the first 6 shots, I miss T2, but called my shot into T1. After my reload, if I wanted to cheat, I would not shoot T1 and stack two shots into T2 instead. (If I didn't want to cheat, I would have to make sure that I deliberately miss T1 to avoid the extra hit penalty.)

By doing this stacking, I prevent the extra hit penalty that would been assesses on T1, and the miss penalty that would have been applied to T2, because all the targets would have the appropriate number of holes.