DPMS for 3-gun?

[Deuce]

Ok, keep in mind, I know little to nothing about AR's.

I'm thinking about getting into 3-gun.

I don't have squat for money but I'm not gonna buy a mini-14.

If I can get a decent DPMS for close to $1000, that might work.

I'd like to do Tactical. I'm thinking, for most matches, most of the rifle-work will be at longer ranges and I've got a spare 3.5-10x50 Leupold so unless someone's willing to contribute their own funds, that's my optic.

I saw the thing in Front Sight about the 16" and making minor. Knowing my luck, if I got a 16", I'd get chrony'd on a 20 degree day and would fall short. Also, I intend to shoot milsurp exclusively ... so, if anyone has any reason why that's a bad idea, I'd like to hear about it now. At this point, I don't even know about the availability of milsurp. In recent months, I've seen plenty of .308. Is the war making milsurp .223 non-existent?

I'm in MN and I've shot the DPMS .308 and, without trying any others, knowing what little I know, I think it'll definately be a DMPS.

What I'm unsure about is:

- how much more is the JP trigger?

- presuming more long-range-work, would a heavy-bbl be better than a comp'd bbl?

- while it doesn't look like it, does DPMS offer an 18"?

- I read the other "gas system" article ... I'm presuming those aren't heavy-bbl's and, if I got a 16", that's probably what I'd get ... so, I'm presuming recoil wouldn't be an issue?

At this point, I'm leaning towards the 20" heavy-bbl ... JP trigger depending solely on funds ... that .308 I shot had the standard trigger and my group @ 100yds was acceptable IMO. I figure the 20" heavy-bbl will take care of all my recoil issues and give me a little more "play" at longer ranges.

So, any thoughts (aside from "buy an Armalite" or "buy a Bushmaster" or "buy a JP")?

Thanks.

[Larry White]

Dpms is fine, 20in is the way to go. You have way too much scope, more shots inside 100 yds than out, field of view is critical so a low power variable is the way to go. My advice is sell the leopold, put your grand with what you get for the scope. Call Benny Hill at 361-241-1091 and get the right stuff from the start. Larry

[Nik Habicht]

Your other option if you're really attached to the scope is JP's handguard, rail, and short range tactical iron sights mounted at 2 o'clock on the handguard....

[h4444]

For the cost conscieous,,,for about $750,,,,you can get a new AR-180B with the scope and proprietary mount kit.

19.8 inch barrel, weighs about 6 lbs unloaded,,,,,,,,

The new ones use Ar-15 fire controls and AR-15 mags.....

With the proprietary mount on, you can still use the iron sights if you'd like.

Just an option......

H4444

[benny hill]

Sell the scope, buy a dpms 20",install a jp trigger, a comp, & buy a 1x4 scope. ready to roll.

[ErikW]

Benny has the right idea, but what's the point of paying twice to assemble everything? If you get a complete rifle (or upper) and add a compensator after the fact, you are paying to disassemble and reassemble the upper on top of the machinging cost and comp cost. If you get a complete rifle (or lower) and add a JP trigger after the fact, you are paying to install it (or spending your own time) on top of the trigger cost.

What you need to do is get on the phone with DPMS, tell them what you want, and see if they can build it to your specs. (They've got all kinds of upgrade options but it's not entirely clear whether they can build you a semi-custom rifle.) If they can't, start looking for a gunsmith who can.

Don't waste your time on a non-floated, non-compensated, crappy-triggered rifle because you will eventually go floated, compensated, good-triggered.

BTW, I purchased parts from DPMS (mostly) and others to have my gunsmith build my upper and I put the JP trigger in my lower by myself.

[warpspeed]

Deuce,

You are right on about staying away from the Ruger Mini-14 - Unless you live in CA of course

[jkmccoy]

Hey, Hey, Hey, Why y'all knocking the Mini14? With some clever gunsmithing it can be a fairly competitive rifle. There are gunsmiths out there that can do some great work on that platform. My home gunsmithed Mini14 is absolutely reliable (can't hit SH*T with it, but it runs).

I HATE AR15's, stupid design, stupid location for controls, stupid rifle all over. Didn't your Gunny tell you that when you hit the bush you should "shoot a g**k, take his AK and all his mags, and throw away that plastic piece of sh*t"? Now you want to buy one?

OK, if you really want to build a 3-gun rifle on an AR platform...Call Benny Hill. He's too modest to tell you, but his guns run (I don't own any Benny guns, this is just my observation watching people at various matches), they shoot, Benny is a serious 3-gun shooter and knows what works (and doesn't). I know Benny well enough to say that he won't do you wrong.

Cheers,

Kelly McCoy

[Nik Habicht]

Benny has the right idea, but what's the point of paying twice to assemble everything? If you get a complete rifle (or upper) and add a compensator after the fact, you are paying to disassemble and reassemble the upper on top of the machinging cost and comp cost. If you get a complete rifle (or lower) and add a JP trigger after the fact, you are paying to install it (or spending your own time) on top of the trigger cost.

Don't waste your time on a non-floated, non-compensated, crappy-triggered rifle because you will eventually go floated, compensated, good-triggered.

Deuce,

I wish I had gotten that advice before buying my box stock 20" Bushmaster three years ago. Since then I've added a JP Trigger group ---- and oh, yeah, a whole JP upper.....

Trust me on this one --- it's much cheaper to get it done right the first time...

[Deuce]

I'm getting the idea that some of you have had problems with stock AR's.

Anyone had a specific problem with a stock DMPS ... beyond a less-than-perfect trigger?

I don't mean to whine ... but the more I get involved in this sport, the more it seems like nothing but a complete custom gun will do ... and it makes me wonder why some of these so-called "premier" manufacturers can't do things right the first time. Even the SV I've ordered might be, supposedly, no good ... had I not ordered it through JP so they can "tune" it for me ... makes me wonder what the he11 Sandy's doing to it.

I don't mean to discount the advice to go with Benny. It's just when I hear "custom", I see $-signs flying away. Of course, if Benny wants to spell out exactly what's wrong with a stock DPMS, I'm all ears. As it is, I think, aside from the scope, he was pretty ok with what I've got in mind.

Bottom-line is, unless I hear a real bad story about a stock DPMS ... particularly, one DPMS didn't make good on ... that's probably the way I'll go. As it is, DMPS is hosting the MN Section match this year and they're sponsoring a new USPSA club ... not to mention 3-gun challenge and Lord knows what else. Unless I hear otherwise, I gotta believe they'll treat me right.

I appreciate the advice on the technicals ... but, unless I'm mistaken, the DMPS "Panther Bull Twenty" comes with a free-floating handguard. And, I'm presuming that, with a heavy-bbl (sorry, I guess I should have clarified that I was looking exclusively at the heavy-bbl'd models), I really don't need a comp ... DPMS doesn't even list that as an option ... although, other non-heavy-bbl models come with 'em. Also, thanks Erik, I figured if I didn't get the JP trigger right away, it might not be a big deal to get it later and put it on myself.

I guess, mostly, I was lookin' for insight into 20" vs. whatever else. I see a lot of "race" guns listed on websites at 24" and I'm not sure why. Also, if anyone had any, first-hand, bad experience with a stock DMPS. The .308 I shot impressed me greatly ... I saw no reason to look elsewhere ... and I appreciate that DMPS does have a good name in the sport. I also saw a friend's Bushy lock-up tight a few weeks ago ... granted, he didn't know enough to clean it before shooting (he just bought it) ... regardless, seeing that, for whatever reason, doesn't instill (sp?) a great deal of confidence.

As for the scope ... I really hate the idea of selling a VariX-III 3.5-10x50 ($550 new) for, likely, close to $300 just to buy (in effect, trade for) a 1-4x20 or the like. If it came to that, I'd just buy a new scope. Granted, I only saw one 3-gun match ... but, they only used the rifles at 200yds. From experience, on other rifles, I know that 3.5-10x50 will serve me well ... particularly with my eyesight ... or lack-thereof. I'm definately lookin' to get a flat-top and put glass on it. I suppose, if anything, I'm actually in a pretty good position ... I already own the 3.5-10x50 ... so it won't cost me any more (beyond rings) to put it on ... so I can try it and see how it goes. If 3.5 is just too much for any close stuff I might encounter, then I can always do something about it at that point ... I don't need to be A or M right out of the gate. However, if anyone knows of a good way to use iron sights on a flat-top while staying in Tactical, I'd like to hear about it. Maybe HoMeBoY has something for that.

So, any horror stories about DPMS? I'd also like to hear about various rifle stages you've enountered. I would've guessed most would be 100yds+. I'm gettin' the idea there might be some that are much closer to typical pistol stages?

Thanks for all the input!

[uscbigdawg]

There's nothing wrong with a DPMS rifle. However, nothing is perfect and everything can use a little help.

Rifle: DPMS (RFA2-BULL20-A3)*

* See if they'll replace the bull barrel with a standard taper

Barrel: Go with a 1x8 twist and either Miculek or JP Comp*

* JP is only down the road, so you can have JP ship the comp over and have DPMS install since they'll be doing a different barrel than 'standard'

Trigger Group: JP trigger kit (which you can install, but since it's there already)

Gas Block: Have them install it (again as they're already working on the barrel)

Then, get JP's tac rail and iron sight kit, which you can install. Lastly, really consider a different scope as 200 yards isn't that far away and a 3.5-10 is WAY too much glass.

A guess on the cost is:

Rifle: $700

Upgrades: $150

Parts from JP: $250

Total: $1,100

Or make life simple and have Benny do everything.

Rich

[BillL223]

I have 59.8 year old eyes. I jumped into 3 gun several years ago without ever having seen a match. Over the years I have picked up quite a bit of experience shooting the SMM3G and the 3-Gun Natls a couple of times. I use a dot for local hoser rifle matchs. The progression of optics on my scoped rifle is as follows, oldest to current: Simmons 3 x 9, Leupold 1.75 x 6, Leupold 1 x 4. Benny is right.

Both of my rifles began life as Bushmasters, improved over the years with good triggers (most important) and comps etc. They were fine out of the box with the exception of the trigger. A 20" V-Match would be a good alternative to a DPMS.

[George]

I am going to third the earlier recommendations for Benny Hill. Take your $1000, call him up and tell him you want an AR. Get the Turkey scope he recommends and you will be able to afford to keep the Leupold, you just don't need it on the AR.

http://www.triangleshootingsports.com/

--

Regards,

[Garrett]

There is still a big difference between a comped gun and a non-comped gun. The trend the past few years seem to be to get away from the heavy barrels, in favor of the medium to light contour barrels. A good comp will make a big difference in the way the gun recoils. A heavy barrel will still lift up off of the target. With my JP comp, the crosshairs just vibrate a little when I shoot.

As others have said, 3.5x is way too much magnification for a 3-gun scope. It may do you fine at 200 yds, but a lot of the rifle stages I have seen were more like long pistol stages, with the longest shot at 40 or 50 yds. This close and closer, the target will just be a big brown blob in your scope. I usually leave my scope on 1x out to 200 yds. unless there is a tight shot or no-shoots to contend with.

[ErikW]

My upper has a DPMS service rifle barrel (Wilson blank, 20", 1" fluted under the handguards, .725" or so from the gas block to the crown). I shot it for a couple years without a comp, thinking comps couldn't help an iron-sighted gun much. When the rifle died at a US3GN I borrowed a JP rifle with Cooley comp and immediately noticed a flatter front sight. After sitting on a prize table JP-Cooley comp for a year or more I finally had it installed on my rifle and it does help.

I second what uscbigdawg said. I don't know why DPMS seems to have a bull barrel on the brain, but they do have lighter profile barrel options.

Notice that nobody has taken the 20" vs. whatever length bait. It's been discussed ad nauseum in this very forum. Get thee to the search function.

[Larry White]

When it comes to stock guns and custom guns the devil is in the details. Everthing on my rifle is DPMS except the barrel and the trigger and Bennys comp. Dpms is good stuff and they do support the game. 3 gun rifles are just like pistols, you have to get them from target to target, heavy bull barrels are slow. With the comps recoil is really not the issue, muzzle rise is the issue, a heavy rifle will still recoil off the target at 100 yds, my 71/2 lb rifle the cross hairs will never leave the A zone. You have a really good scope for killing deer but your fov at 100 is about 30 ft, you need to see the target you are shooting at and the next one, better yet the next 2. The fov on my turkey scope is 71 ft at 100. I bet the diffrence between the custom gun and the stock gun is about 200 bucks or so. How much will a good smith charge to to up grade it when you decide you need a better rifle? Plus shipping, twice, and your time. Getting it right the first time is really cheaper in the long run. Most of us have already been thru this a time or two and are willing to share this for free. Larry

[warpspeed]

Hey, Hey, Hey, Why y'all knocking the Mini14? With some clever gunsmithing it can be a fairly competitive rifle. There are gunsmiths out there that can do some great work on that platform. My home gunsmithed Mini14 is absolutely reliable (can't hit SH*T with it, but it runs).

No bashing - I have one that I love. Every bit as accurate as an AR. But the Mags are very finicky to say the least and the mag changes are less than quick.

[Deuce]

OK, I'll buy into the scope thing. I won't even bother with the 3.5-10x50 and I'll see what Benny recommends as far as make and model ... I'm presuming it'll be a 1-4x20 or so.

I'll also buy into the comped tapered bbl instead of the heavy-bbl ... makes sense to me. I'm also pretty sure DMPS offers a 20" tapered-bbl gun so I don't think it'd be "custom" yet.

Again, I'm figurin' I can always throw the JP trigger on at any time so it's just not a priority yet.

Now, keep in mind, I DO NOT want to be thrown into the Open aggregate ... I'm hoping to keep it in Tactical. So, I believe that limits me to a 1x3 comp? I'm thinking some of you may have referred to the big-@$$ comp JP has ... which looks impressive indeed ... but, I believe is only legal for Open. I'm guessing that even a 1x3 comp would probably keep the rifle on target better than a heavy-bbl, but, confirmation wouldn't hurt.

If Benny's listening, don't hold your breath ... I still gotta pay the other 50% when my SV comes so it'll be a while yet. But, I guess if you can offer me a 20" tapered-bbl DMPS with the JP trigger and a decent Tactical-legal comp for close to $1000, I'd be interested ... particularly if I can avoid sales-tax.

BTW, I wasn't trying bait anyone into anything ... I was just curious why "race" guns seemed to be offered at 24". As it is, everyone seems pretty agreeable to 20" and, if there were an issue, I'm sure I'd've heard about it by now. And I'm just too darn lazy to use the search.

Thanks for all the input ... this is great ... I'm feeling much better about where I'm going with this.

[Deuce]

Oh ya, what's a "gas block"? And why do I need one? Or a new one?

Thanks.

[uscbigdawg]

OK, I'll buy into the scope thing. I won't even bother with the 3.5-10x50 and I'll see what Benny recommends as far as make and model ... I'm presuming it'll be a 1-4x20 or so.

Simmons is pretty good. And if it breaks (which I haven't had one yet) it's only like $80.

Now, keep in mind, I DO NOT want to be thrown into the Open aggregate ... I'm hoping to keep it in Tactical. So, I believe that limits me to a 1x3 comp? I'm thinking some of you may have referred to the big-@$$ comp JP has ... which looks impressive indeed ... but, I believe is only legal for Open. I'm guessing that even a 1x3 comp would probably keep the rifle on target better than a heavy-bbl, but, confirmation wouldn't hurt.

Yes JP's 'tank brake' will put you into Open. However, the new-er, JP-Bennie Cooley Comp, is the heat and will keep you in Limited/Tactical.

Again, I'm figurin' I can always throw the JP trigger on at any time so it's just not a priority yet.

Personally, this is more important than the comp. One can overcome recoil and muzzle flip of the .223 quite easily. However, when you need to take a good clean long shot, a good trigger is well worth its weight in gold.

Oh ya, what's a "gas block"? And why do I need one? Or a new one?

The JP adjustable gas block allows you to tune the stroke of the bolt for better function.

Glad to have you aboard and good luck!

Rich

[benny hill]

20" rifle, 2pc handguard, dpms upper, rock river lower, my comp & jp trigger ready to compete with most anyone's. $1250.00 plus shipping.