Shooting In The Dark - Muzzle Flash Reduction

[BamBams]

I've been researching shooting in darkness. I watched a great video by Bill Wilson recently where he demonstrates using 5.3g of VV N320 under a 230g Hornady XTP in a .45ACP. Compared to many (mostly factory stuff) of the other loads he shot in the dark, this load seemed to have the least flash. I called him up and found out that he was using Federal Primers.

Now for my totally weird question:

Has anyone ever experimented with different primers to see which ones produced the least amount of muzzle flash? I am thinking that they are all going to be about the same, but I'm not sure.

[rhino]

While this doesn't answer your question directly, I've never been bothered by muzzle flash when shooting in the dark. To me it's a non-issue, but it does generate a lot of articles for the popular gun rags. It's more of an issue of being seen by someone else than not being able to see because being behind it.

If you're using a flashlight, the smoke from your fired rounds is a much worse problem because it reflects your light like fog does car headlights. For that reason I would avoid lead reloads because the bullet lube is really smoky when it burns!

Finally, I doubt if primers would make a significant difference compared to the powder with regard to muzzle flash.

[DBChaffin]

I'll throw my 2 cents in. I have been trying some different powders in .40 for Limited, mainly due to the cost of VV and just to see if I liked anything better. As part of the test, I shot a couple rounds loaded with each of the powders at the indoor range with all of the lights turned off to see what the muzzle flash was like. There is a club near here that occasionally shoots night matches so it might be helpful when I am able to make one. Anyway, these are my observations:

I tried VV N320 (my usual load), Winchester SuperTarget, Hogdon Clays, and Hogdon TiteGroup, all under a 180 grain jacketed Montana Gold bullet. The differences were very interesting. I was in the process of working up the loads, all but the Clays were right around 170-172 PF. The Clays was around 166 PF.

VV 320 had a small, dull orange fireball with just a few "sparks" that almost seemed to shoot out with the bullet. Maybe they are single burning flakes of powder being ejected behind the bullet? My guess but I don't know. Not bad at all overall though. The sparks are only noticeable if I pay complete attention to the muzzle when firing. If shooting the gun at a target, the dull orange silhouettes the sights nicely and the sparks aren't really noticeable. Very acceptable.

Winchester SuperTarget was very similar to N320, except the sparks are even fewer and less noticeable. This was a bit surprising as I figured it would be slightly worse being generally considered a bit slower than 320. The feel is similar to 320 as well but it is a good bit dirtier in my gun for what that's worth.

Hogdon Clays had the smallest flash of all the powders. Very small, dull orange ball of flame. Also very soft feel but that is probably at least partly due to being a lower PF load.

Hogdon TiteGroup had a much brighter, slightly larger flash. Much more noticeable when shooting. Didn't see the "sparks" I mentioned above, just a brighter orange fireball. Again, this is somewhat surprising based on the speed of the powder. Being faster than 320 and WST and not too much slower than Clays on most burn rate charts, I figured it would be relatively low flash.

I used Federal Small Rifle primers in all of the loads, and like Rhino don't think primers will make a big difference. If I make it to a night match, I'll likely just shoot my regular N320 load although Clays would be tempting.

Bryant

[tightloop]

Not to flame anyone, but it sounds like a LEO question. How many matches in the last year have you shot at night? If you shoot only in the day, isn't it moot?

[Guest Larry Cazes]

Ive done a bit of full dark shooting and did a similiar analysis a year or so ago with .45acp. My experiences pretty much follow yours. I found WST to be the all around best choice and titegroup to be the worst using 230 gr RN westcoast bullets and WSP primers. I dont consider Clays to be a good choice since it exhibited pressure signs as I approached 170 PF. I have found that titegroup only performs well at high PFs above 185. It burns incompletely, leaves lots of soot, and creates an impressive fireball at USPSA PFs. I tried CCI and WSP primers and did not notice any difference in flash. I have settled into using WST for both .45acp and .40sw. I didnt try N320 since it was twice the price of the other powders tested and it is NOT available locally.

[DBChaffin]

Tightloop, I don't really see it as an LEO question. I personally have never shot a match at night, whether in the last year or not. However, as mentioned in my previous post, there is a club near me that schedules 4-6 night matches per year. I will probably end up making one eventually. Also, I believe it was the factory gun nationals in Barry last year that featured a "dark house" stage where the shooter was given a flashlight and put in a dark room. Seems like it may be something to consider, even if it is moot 99+% of the time.

Larry, I am guessing the Clays showed pressure signs in .40? If I had to pick only one of those powders for .40 AND .45, I'd probably lean toward WST as well. I really like N320 in .40 but it wasn't as great in .45. Clays is great in .45 but I am not sold on it in .40 yet. TG is probably a decent compromise but I don't see me giving up N320 for it. N320 is expensive but it is available locally and I generally buy it at large matches at a decent price (still more than the others though). We'll see though. I'm not finished with my testing yet.

Bryant

[tightloop]

We occasionally had night matches in the late '70's and early '80's but I don't think they do much of that anymore. House clearing is another matter, but having shot a few of those, muzzle flash at the moment it happens is the least of your problems. Smoke and your flashlight if using one are bigger problems to the shooter than flash, when trying to locate and identify shoot targets.

[rhino]

Sunny-San ... a lot of IDPA clubs are really into the night shooting now. One of the clubs where I shoot has one every year and I've read on one of the IDPA forums that clubs have several every year.

They're a lot of fun and very educational if you approach it with the right attitude.

Agree on the smoke and light combination being far more of a concern than muzzle flash ...

[tightloop]

PurpleP

do you now have to wear your ninja clothes to shoot the night IDPA matches? If so, no one can see your streamlined gear, but then the lightning bolts mean you don't need a flashlight...

Sorry to be so reluctant, but I think it is still a LEO question. after two shots, you can't see S%^&t anyway, smoke, dust, whatever...

[dajarrel]

A month or so ago, we were going to shoot a low light stage at our indoor range. We turned all the lights off except those at the shooting bay and noticed that our targets which were set about 20 yards downrange were barely visable. We were originally going to shoot with flashlights but discovered that the muzzle flash lit the targets enough to be able to point shoot the COF and get decent hits. Some were brighter than others and the comp'ed guns really put on a show. It was alot of fun and as a byproduct gave us an idea how we would be able to shoot by muzzle flash in low light if we had to.

FWIW

dj

[rhino]

Sorry to be so reluctant, but I think it is still a LEO question. after two shots, you can't see S%^&t anyway, smoke, dust, whatever...

I'd be willing to go that it's more of a defense-oriented question, but certainly not limited to LEO. Don't forget that most tense social situations happen in low light or the complete dark, regardless of whether someone has a badge or not.

[tightloop]

Rhino

yes I have read the stats, as I teach the CHL in Texas. It just reinforces my point that worrying about flash is a moot point, in that most confrontations take place at 7 feet or less in darkness and 2.1 shots are fired. At 7 feet muzzle flash isn't a big deal unless you are shooting a USPSA Open gun...

[Flexmoney]

I haven't shot with LEO's much. But, I have shot indoors...in night matches...in "dark houses"...in dim log cabins...etc.

If anybody has any more experiences to share, please do so.

(I guess I am saying that I don't see the point of labeling this a "LEO" question. As if that makes it bad somehow. )

[tightloop]

Flex

That is not the point of my comments, perhaps I phrased it poorly.

What I ment to say is that the LEO people are the ones who would be most effected by that kind of thing and that competition shooters shoot in the dark so seldom that IMO it is hardly worth the effort to be concerned with it, much less worry about changing powders to reduce flash etc.

Sorry, did not mean to be argumentative...

[Guest Larry Cazes]

I think Im gonna stay out of this LEO or not discussion here......YMMV .

I am gonna beg to differ on the opinion that flash is not significant. It can be extremely startling and blinding in total darkness. Also, those loads that tend to produce a lot of flash do generally produce a lot of smoke which has already been stated can obscur targets, etc.

DBChaffin, No. .45 230 gr. westcoast RN and clays produced intermittent pressure signs in multiple guns of mine and those of friends as well. Clays is really a bit too fast for .45 Major loads with 230gr bullets. Very small changes in COL and charge weight can cause pressure to spike significantly.

[BamBams]

You guys are cracking me up over here -- being more concerned with the possible motivation of the question, and it's possible application to matches, or even if it has any merit at all. I simply asked because it's an area I'd like to know more about. I was always taught, and still believe, that the only stupid question is the one you fail to ask. I guess that's not the case around here? I'll take it elsewhere from now on.

[Flexmoney]

BamBams,

Your fine...keep on asking.

[rhino]

That's not the most positive attitude I've seen lately.

I did my best to answer your question.

[Guy Neill]

The first Nationals I shot in included a dark house standards. I had loaded HS6 at that time and found it to be virtually a flash bulb going off in front of my face. Those with night sights did better than those without.

Several years ago I did an article on powder flash in the dark, trying several different powders. I did not try different primers, but did find a great difference in various powders. HS6 was still very bright, as expected, as was Power Pistol, as I recall. IMR 700X was low flash, as was Vihtavuori 3N37. Winchester 231 was in the middle.

At present I do not remember what other powders I may have tried.

It was interesting looking at the photographs with smoke rings in front of the gun.

Guy

[tightloop]

Guy

Remember when we used to shoot night matches? It made a big difference when we got the night sights with the Strontium inserts, it was like having aircraft landing lights on your gun. The smoke made it really hard to see if you used lead bullets and finally discovered that hardball made a big difference. I never experimented with the powder enough to really tell a difference, but by that time we were shooting 452AA and it was pretty low flash as I remember. I do remember the dark house at the Natl's and it kicked my but shooting LSWC over 231.

Wink

[Guy Neill]

Yeah, the night shoots were fun. Flashlights and smoke don't work well together. At least that's what I was getting with 231 and cast bullets with a flashlight. I used HS6 at Nationals that year because of the steel and the 230gr jacketed bullets I was using for the match.

Brass pick-up was fun in the dark as well......

Guy

[eric nielsen]

Unless you're at a DARK activity where your night vision has been tuning in for quite some time, flash is not going to bother you. Certainly not blind you.

For normal indoor light or a night match with some lighting, I like as much flash as possible. Tells me whether I saw each shot as it went off. Produces confidence, and confidence puts you onto the next target much sooner.

[Carlos]

We have run 2 dark stages since our USPSA club was affiliated (less than 1 year ago). www.shootersparadise.com Because we supply the shooter with a Surefire light to illuminate the targets on the dark stage, muzzle flash is generally a non-issue since the gun is usually illuminated as well. Lead bullet smoke however, is a terrible problem indoors even with the lights on.