Flexmoney Posted June 3, 2011 Share Posted June 3, 2011 You are probably correct. But, do you have to call it one way or the other before the overlay? In my RO class, I was told to call it, and let the competitor challenge BEFORE pulling the overlay. I've been doing it this way for a long time, and the rulebook does not say one way or the other. I've never pulled an overlay, or seen one pulled without the competitor asking for it. No, you don't. That is not a rule, but a tactic. The thought being that, if the competitor sees you pull an overlay out, he/she will think you are waffling on your call and will pressure you. I don't agree. At majors (and most locals) I will have my overlays at the ready (not have to dig for them in my wallet or go to the range bag). I just use them as a normal course of business and make my call. I used to operate with the belief that, if I had to get the overlay out, it probably touched the line. (most of those go in the shooter's favor in getting the higher value...nobody ever calls for a double on a NS...LOL) But, using my overlays gives better information, and I can score a stage just a fast by using them when needed (since I have them at the ready). [edit to add...I see I am late replying on this one too. ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Singlestack Posted June 3, 2011 Share Posted June 3, 2011 I would not mind if the non-scoring border went away. Anytime a target was dropped on the ground the scoring area would change. Not good. Jgross How often do targets get dropped? If the edge is damaged, don't use it. It would eliminate the need to use an overlay on edge hits. IMO, that would far out weigh targets getting damaged by being dropped. The only thing the non-scoring border does for us is make it easier to see edge hits. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bluenite Posted June 3, 2011 Share Posted June 3, 2011 Half my shots just touch that perf. If it went away, I would never get a scored hit. Leonard Yes you would. The only thing gone would be the non-scoring portion. Not to worry, I tag a lot of noshoots and those are scored as hits. I have a clip and snap attachment typically used for badges, I put a overlay on it and it clips to my shirt. Leonard Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George Jones Posted June 3, 2011 Share Posted June 3, 2011 I would not mind if the non-scoring border went away. That would return us to days gone by. Not a good idea, IMO. The non-scoring border is what allows us to actually see a very close hit. It also allows us to have an arc to use with the overlay. Without the NSB, we would not likely see those close hits. That means the shooter would not get credit for a D on a scoring target and end up with a Mike. For no-shoots, same problem (not that shooters would mind), but any close hit which was not noticed could be seen later and end up on some other shooter's scoresheet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Nesbitt Posted June 3, 2011 Share Posted June 3, 2011 I would not mind if the non-scoring border went away. That would return us to days gone by. Not a good idea, IMO. The non-scoring border is what allows us to actually see a very close hit. It also allows us to have an arc to use with the overlay. Without the NSB, we would not likely see those close hits. That means the shooter would not get credit for a D on a scoring target and end up with a Mike. For no-shoots, same problem (not that shooters would mind), but any close hit which was not noticed could be seen later and end up on some other shooter's scoresheet. This. Before non scoring borders, I've seen D hits given to shooters from the mark where the targets were bundled together. Believe me, It's much better now than it was in the good old days. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted June 3, 2011 Share Posted June 3, 2011 If we could change the targets, I'd rather see us go the other way and increase the size of the non-scoring border (to greater than 45 caliber). That would offer up some logistical issues though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Singlestack Posted June 3, 2011 Share Posted June 3, 2011 If we could change the targets, I'd rather see us go the other way and increase the size of the non-scoring border (to greater than 45 caliber). That would offer up some logistical issues though. I would not have a problem with that either. Anything close to the scoring border would be a full diameter hit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bluenite Posted June 3, 2011 Share Posted June 3, 2011 I have a target handy that is “official uspsa-ipsc 1990” the border on it is 0.480. I have a rule book from that time period around but not as handy. The new rule book has a border that = 0.197. So I think the border used to be larger then a .45, but not certain with out digging out the old book. Leonard Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Schutzenmeister Posted June 3, 2011 Share Posted June 3, 2011 I have a target handy that is “official uspsa-ipsc 1990” the border on it is 0.480. I have a rule book from that time period around but not as handy. The new rule book has a border that = 0.197. So I think the border used to be larger then a .45, but not certain with out digging out the old book. Leonard I too remember the older "wider" non-scoring borders. The oldest book I have is the 7th edition, 1995. I cannot find anywhere in that book where it specifies the exact width of the border, but I seem to remember that they were around 1/2". The applicable appendix does not seem to specify the width. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bluenite Posted June 3, 2011 Share Posted June 3, 2011 Could not find the rule book I was looking for, is yellow not sure of the year. I have the 95 it is blue and don’t list border, but I do have “Third edition Feb 28 1993 club program manual” handy and it reads “NOTE: Non-scoring border is up to ½ inch wide”. A lot of things have changed since then, also ran in to the 1991 Classification course book, it is some good reading. Leonard Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skydiver Posted June 3, 2011 Share Posted June 3, 2011 I don't see many RO's here walking around with overlays in hand while scoring. Most will have them in a pocket or wallet. (I keep mine in my rear pocket without the mags. Bright shiny overlays become scratched and hazy by the end of the day.) Since, I can't learn by watching, can somebody describe a good technique for the timing of juggling the timer and the overlays? I'm envisioning after "Range is clear" clipping/hanging the timer to myself. Pulling out the overlays. Score targets. Stash overlays. Help tape/reset. Get back to start position to wait for next shooter while rest of squad puts final bits of tape or paint. Grab timer again. Is there a better place to stash the overlays other the back pocket? A front shirt pocket or a hat brim perhaps? Or will an enterprising fellow come up with a sleeve that can be attached to a timer that can hold the overlays? Hmmm... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bluenite Posted June 3, 2011 Share Posted June 3, 2011 This is what I use, works great, very handy and cheap, just need to cut a hole in the overlay. Leonard Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark R Posted June 17, 2011 Share Posted June 17, 2011 I would not mind if the non-scoring border went away. SS...as I understand the reason we now have edge borders is, in days past some shooters would follow the RO while they scored the targets. When the RO would score a miss on a non-edged target, the shooter would put their finger on their pistol at the rear of the slide in order to get a little bleed-out grease from the slide rails, then as the RO walked away, touch the grease to the edge of the target and then call the RO back to show the grease mark in hopes of getting an overturn on the missed call. Of course non of us would really do that, right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Singlestack Posted June 17, 2011 Share Posted June 17, 2011 I would not mind if the non-scoring border went away. SS...as I understand the reason we now have edge borders is, in days past some shooters would follow the RO while they scored the targets. When the RO would score a miss on a non-edged target, the shooter would put their finger on their pistol at the rear of the slide in order to get a little bleed-out grease from the slide rails, then as the RO walked away, touch the grease to the edge of the target and then call the RO back to show the grease mark in hopes of getting an overturn on the missed call. Of course non of us would really do that, right? Damn. Thats just wrong Never woulda crossed my mind. Maybe the answer is a bigger non-scoring border like Flex suggested. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chuck Anderson Posted June 17, 2011 Share Posted June 17, 2011 I would not mind if the non-scoring border went away. Try scoring NRA AP-1 and D-1 targets that don't have a non-scoring border. Each time you have to examine the entire outer edge of the target for the smallest hint of a bullet impact. It's a real pain in the butt. That non-scoring border is a huge time saver. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moverfive Posted June 17, 2011 Share Posted June 17, 2011 If we could change the targets, I'd rather see us go the other way and increase the size of the non-scoring border (to greater than 45 caliber). That would offer up some logistical issues though. Having shot the targets when the borders were this big size - I know most REALLY appreciated when we shrunk the size to where we have the NSB's today. The reason we didn't like the old size - you could have a full diameter hit on the target and still have lots of room on both side of the hole (from the outside edge and the actual scoring border). So we would see a full diameter hit that appears to be WELL inside the outside edge.....and yet still get a mike because you nowhere near the scoring perf. With the size we have today, if you see a full diameter hit with any caliber, you know you have scored a 'hit.' Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
West Texas Granny Posted June 19, 2011 Share Posted June 19, 2011 I would not mind if the non-scoring border went away. SS...as I understand the reason we now have edge borders is, in days past some shooters would follow the RO while they scored the targets. When the RO would score a miss on a non-edged target, the shooter would put their finger on their pistol at the rear of the slide in order to get a little bleed-out grease from the slide rails, then as the RO walked away, touch the grease to the edge of the target and then call the RO back to show the grease mark in hopes of getting an overturn on the missed call. Of course non of us would really do that, right? On this grease ring thing. What do you guys do. Dip your ammo in oil before loading up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Singlestack Posted June 19, 2011 Share Posted June 19, 2011 I would not mind if the non-scoring border went away. SS...as I understand the reason we now have edge borders is, in days past some shooters would follow the RO while they scored the targets. When the RO would score a miss on a non-edged target, the shooter would put their finger on their pistol at the rear of the slide in order to get a little bleed-out grease from the slide rails, then as the RO walked away, touch the grease to the edge of the target and then call the RO back to show the grease mark in hopes of getting an overturn on the missed call. Of course non of us would really do that, right? On this grease ring thing. What do you guys do. Dip your ammo in oil before loading up. That answers a LOT of questions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
glefos Posted June 19, 2011 Share Posted June 19, 2011 That answers a LOT of questions. Hilarious! I was thinking the exact same thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aztecdriver Posted June 19, 2011 Author Share Posted June 19, 2011 (edited) On this grease ring thing. What do you guys do. Dip your ammo in oil before loading up. It does answer a lot -and considering the tone a lot of other posts have taken, I decided to answer this post almost legitimately. Have you EVER looked at the hole in a clean hit in a target and notice that smudged grey-like mark on edge of the bullet hole in the cardboard? That's the grease ring. It's caused by the artifacts of combustion of gun powder. Ever see a slow motion firing of a handgun and the fireball blowby that comes out of a gun first before the bullet? That's how that stuff gets on there. Seriously, you have not seen this? That explains a ton. I also don't know why I bothered with that - all you do is slam something you don't completely understand - we address it and you ignore that and move on to the next topic. So blah - yeah - ... Edited June 19, 2011 by aztecdriver Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skydiver Posted June 19, 2011 Share Posted June 19, 2011 That answers a LOT of questions. Hilarious! I was thinking the exact same thing. Since people have been recommending using Mobil-1 as gun oil, I wouldn't be surprised. LOL! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted June 20, 2011 Share Posted June 20, 2011 Ease up folks. Don't post at people. That is a no go here. - Admin. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark R Posted June 21, 2011 Share Posted June 21, 2011 If we could change the targets, I'd rather see us go the other way and increase the size of the non-scoring border (to greater than 45 caliber). That would offer up some logistical issues though. .... With the size we have today, if you see a full diameter hit with any caliber, you know you have scored a 'hit.' That is unless it only bends the side of the edge border instead of putting a "hole" in it...as we all know from a previous "Flex" thread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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