Shadow Custom Shoots high

[heckofagator]

Hey guys, I got a Shadow Custom a few weeks ago (the $1200 one) and while I like it, I have found that it seems to shoot a few inches high. Being that the sites are not adjustable, what are my options? Other than that, its ran flawlessly. It still seeping oil. I've taken it apart twice and wiped down everything that I can, but I assume this will slow with time.

[The_Vigilante]

Easy solution. Have the fixed sights replaced with adjustables if the seller will not make it good! First of all have someone else shoot the pistol to verify it is not you. What ammo are you using btw?

Edited May 16, 2011 by The_Vigilante

[sfinney]

Contact the CZ Custom shop, they can hook you up with a different front sight a little bit taller, if its an issue.

[heckofagator]

I was using some Federal and Remington std ammo from walmart. I had hoped that it was just me the first time I shot it. Took it out again this weekend and was seeing the same thing. I found out that I could adjust the shot by making sure the front site was a tad lower than the rears when lining everything up, but I'm not sure I want to try and get used to that.

On a side note, I also got a Dan Wesson Valor from them at the same time and man, is that thing accurate. Shoots a very tight group exactly where I want it. In fact, I didn't even know I could shoot that good.

I'll give it one more shot at the range and then hook up with CZ Custom and see what they say.

Edit to add: Did you guys see this deal? http://czcustom.com/special483.aspx

I wish this would have been available when I ordered 2 weeks ago. Looks like a nice value.

Edited May 16, 2011 by heckofagator

[470nitro]

The correct fix is changing the front sight height or instead modifying the load you are using.

I had a load developed for my M&P with 124gr MG CMJ that I tried using on my new Shadow with 6.0 mm tall front and it would consistently print 4" high at 21 yards. Similar with WWB and Federal American Eagle.

Knowing I was so high, I talked with the CZ Custom guys and ended up buying a much taller 7.5 mm front sight (as they don't sell a 7.0 mm). Point of impact shifted down to about 1.0" below front sight dot. Proved that the 6.5 mm would probably not have been enough.

Then I changed my loads to a 125gr Zero JHP and modified my overall length to accommodate the JHP. Shooting shifted to around 4" low. Went back to the standard 6.0 mm front sight and impact is just above the front sight FO at 21. Perfect for me.

Depending, you may want to look at Dawson for their Shadow replacement blades if your problem was like mine (really needed a 7.0 mm for my old load).

[ck1]

A lot of what POI you're getting depends on how/where your POA is beyond just the load and how tall your front blade is, I wouldn't start changing things out until you're absolutely sure you know what you want to be changing. Pretty sure with the CZC Custom Shadows the POI is supposed to be the top of the blade with factory FMJ like you're using, NOT the FO dot, if you're aiming with the dot and expecting it to print where you're pointing that, then that'd explain why it seems to be shooting high... IMHO rule that out first.

[heckofagator]

I found this on the CZ Forum when doing some searching, and this is what I believe I am doing. Again, going to test this out again, paying very close attention with a rest and have someone else verify. This is my first time with a FO sight so perhaps its throwing me off a little.

I've also heard back from CZ Custom already and as always, they're great to work with.

Edited May 16, 2011 by heckofagator

[J-Hon]

Just had another shooter last weekend with the same problem. He was running a '75 SA with a 5.5 front, and a comp rear. Shot about an inch high @ 15yds, and 3-4 inches high @ 25 yards.

I told him that he should try a 6.5mm high front, or maybe one of those front sight blanks that you can cut down yourself.

[Magnus_no1]

All shadows shoot to high whit everything. The thing is this, if a novice shooter use it an don't understand what a correct trigger pull is then it actually shoot quite perfect. And even when a expert shooter shoots relay fast it works fine. I don't really understand how they reason here, quite strange.

But try to shoot at 30yads with god trigger pull, the shots would probably not hit a IPSC target at that distance.

Whit my experience 5,9mm is perfect. The original is actually closer to 5,4mm. But could be manufactory tolerance.

[gmg]

Mine was doing the same thing so i ordered a 6.5mm front sight. Much better now

[gnhowell1]

I've spoken to Angus & Rob at CZ Custom about this and had it explained...Yes, inside of 10 yards the bullet impact may be a bit high but if you're trying to shoot a plate rack or head shot at 20+ yards and you don't want to cover the entire plate or head with your front post it's the route to go.

I wasn't quite sure about that logic until I went to this years Blue Ridge Mountain 3 gun match and had to shoot gongs anywhere from 35-70 yards and 4"x4" steel at 10-30 yards. I can tell you it was nice to be able to see the majority of the target while I squeezed off a round.

Same match I watched an open shooter shoot 72 rounds on one stage because his 11 MOA dot covered the entire target and he didn't have it sighted in for small targets at long distances. A couple of glock guys I know that were set up for IDPA wished they had thinner, lower front sights for all the small targets after the match. My Shadow just kept knocking them down though.

[Magnus_no1]

I've spoken to Angus & Rob at CZ Custom about this and had it explained...Yes, inside of 10 yards the bullet impact may be a bit high but if you're trying to shoot a plate rack or head shot at 20+ yards and you don't want to cover the entire plate or head with your front post it's the route to go.

I wasn't quite sure about that logic until I went to this years Blue Ridge Mountain 3 gun match and had to shoot gongs anywhere from 35-70 yards and 4"x4" steel at 10-30 yards. I can tell you it was nice to be able to see the majority of the target while I squeezed off a round.

Same match I watched an open shooter shoot 72 rounds on one stage because his 11 MOA dot covered the entire target and he didn't have it sighted in for small targets at long distances. A couple of glock guys I know that were set up for IDPA wished they had thinner, lower front sights for all the small targets after the match. My Shadow just kept knocking them down though.

Well I don't agree. Why should you cover the entire plate or target at 20y? you should cover half of it and hitting the center that way. If this was true then you have to adapt where to aim on a target depending on how far it is For example: aiming in the bottom of targets at 30y, and around center at 10y. and then still hitting a little high. If you have this problem you should fix it whit a thinner front sight instead, that is the correct solution if you ask me. The gun have to hit where you aim . And whit iron sights that can almost be true at any distance (if we don't care about bullet drop).

PS: you have around 4" bullet drop in 70y.

Fells kinda stupid to question Angus and CO. But you still have to say what you think.

[Jeff Matzka]

I've spoken to Angus & Rob at CZ Custom about this and had it explained...Yes, inside of 10 yards the bullet impact may be a bit high but if you're trying to shoot a plate rack or head shot at 20+ yards and you don't want to cover the entire plate or head with your front post it's the route to go.

I wasn't quite sure about that logic until I went to this years Blue Ridge Mountain 3 gun match and had to shoot gongs anywhere from 35-70 yards and 4"x4" steel at 10-30 yards. I can tell you it was nice to be able to see the majority of the target while I squeezed off a round.

Same match I watched an open shooter shoot 72 rounds on one stage because his 11 MOA dot covered the entire target and he didn't have it sighted in for small targets at long distances. A couple of glock guys I know that were set up for IDPA wished they had thinner, lower front sights for all the small targets after the match. My Shadow just kept knocking them down though.

Well I don't agree. Why should you cover the entire plate or target at 20y? you should cover half of it and hitting the center that way. If this was true then you have to adapt where to aim on a target depending on how far it is For example: aiming in the bottom of targets at 30y, and around center at 10y. and then still hitting a little high. If you have this problem you should fix it whit a thinner front sight instead, that is the correct solution if you ask me. The gun have to hit where you aim . And whit iron sights that can almost be true at any distance (if we don't care about bullet drop).

PS: you have around 4" bullet drop in 70y.

Fells kinda stupid to question Angus and CO. But you still have to say what you think.

I agree with Magnus_no1. For me, I like the bullet to impact exactly where the sights line up, not above it. That's the best way to have a chance of hitting the target over the widest of ranges. That said, and since the CZ's seem to be configured to shoot a bit high out of the box, just know that when you buy a CZ you are likely to have to replace the front sight with a higher post. It would be great of they were sighted to point of aim from the factory, but apparently that is not not their philosophy. Very nice guns - you just need to buy a higher front sight with the gun.

[Angus Hobdell]

A lot of the issue is the bullet flight path. I did a lot of testing, and the difference of impact point with the same sights, sight hold and ammo changes at differing distance, that's because the 9mm does have a slightly curved flight path.

So the distance you zero makes a difference, to POI at differing distance!

Since the tightest group we shoot is close up, that's the easiest way to ascertain where the gun shoot. Groups get bigger as the target distance increases and that make it more difficult to ascertain the exact center of group anyway!

Also the actual hold on the target at distance is more difficult, since the error of holding the gun at the same place and steady becomes way more difficult even from a bag!

The reason for any gun shooting a little high is so you can aim POA at say 50 yards and the gun shoots a little higher. At speed it is always best to aim dead center. Now you know that even with a little trigger flinch the bullet will fly hi.

A USPSA target at 50 yards is pretty small, so better to halve, it then try to shoot point of aim, also the A zone is not centered it is higher then the vertical center line of the target. Naturally we want the bullets in the A zone.

Most people cannot shoot better then say 6" at 50 anyway, so how do you actually know where the sight is shooting (withing that group) Choosing the center of the group may not be correct?

At 7 / 10 yards on most of the targets we shoot an inch makes no difference at all, the A Zone is 11" high most error at speed is left to right. With a small plate the difference is you see, more target by aiming down the plate.

After all what's 1" between friends.

I suppose the most critical distance is around 15 /18 yards, that's the most difficult to shoot a plate and about the furthest we shoot 6" plates.

If you imagine half a 6" plate at 18 yards when you have and the gun completely covering the lower half of the plate. Now you are shooting a 3 inch target with no reference point.

[Magnus_no1]

Thank you for that explanation. Makes sense. You made at least me to think some more about this. It's actually a rather complex issue.

And since the standard sights, as far as i know only comes in 0,5mm steps I understand the choice of 5,5mm. But if there were, let's say.... a 5,8mm sight available I think maybe that's what would be delivered by default. Because the 5,5mm just shoots to high for all that to work. At least with all the bullets and loads I have tried. And that is quiet a few now.

[Angus Hobdell]

Guns normally ship with 6.0mm front sometimes 6.5 if the POA need altering.

Not 5.5mm

[ck1]

To put things another way, or at least as I understand it, IMO hitting right at the top of the blade or slightly higher (say an inch or so depending on ammo) at around 7-10yrds or so is ideal for IDPA and USPSA/IPSC and not really a true 6 o'clock hold... and I think CZC and Angus deliver the guns sighted-in height-wise correctly.

I think many shooters treat FO front sights just like a red dot and expect POI to end up where they had the glowing dot when they pulled the trigger, but that leaves one guessing when shooting plates at say 15yrds and beyond because then you'd just be covering what you're trying to shoot (a .125" wide front blade covers up most of a target at 25 yards)... The FO is only there to draw your eyes to the front blade quickly, and close in seeing the FO in the A-zone/Zero-zone is usually all it takes, but it's alignment and the top of the blade that's used for precision... if one wants to go to a different sight height to have POI be the same as where the FO dot is pointed then that is a preference-motivated change, not a correction.

Edited May 20, 2011 by ck1

[Magnus_no1]

Guns normally ship with 6.0mm front sometimes 6.5 if the POA need altering.

Not 5.5mm

Okay, here in Europe all are 5,5.

[Angus Hobdell]

Then you are talking about factory Shadows, which we in the US have no control over.

[heckofagator]

Ok, so I went and got a rest and went to the range with the Shadow. I'm not sure what to make of the results. Some groups are high, some aren't that bad. Maybe I'm still getting use to the pistol? What do you think? Should I get a front sight that's a little higher, or is this shooting as expected? Again, I've only been shooting for a couple years, so take that into account and this is only the 3rd trip to the range with this particular firearm.

I think a little bit is probably getting used to the Shadow and some part is needed training on my end. I did get a Dan Wesson Valor 1911 at the same time as the Shadow and can keep pretty tight groups, much better than is shown here. So while I'm no marksman, it could be worse (I hope!) and I'm pretty confident I'm capable of shooting half decently.

First up is 7 shots @ 7 yds from a rest

Next up is 7 shots @ 15 yds from a rest

And then 7 shots @ 20 yds from the rest

Then we have 10 shots @ 7 yds standing

And the final pic, the top and bottom groups were rapid fire (10 shots each), the middle group was actually my very first grouping to get everything a little warmed up before I got out the rest. All of these were shot without the rest.