Hornady LNL Die selection

[Jungo2]

Greetings,

I'm new to reloading. After deliberating and researching for almost 2 years, I've decided to purchase a Hornady LNL w/ case feeder. I've been procrastinating for some time because the thought of spending hours down in my basement mindlessly cranking a lever - like a hamster waiting for another food pellet - doesn't seem to appeal to me. That said, I shoot competitively and a reloader will ultimately afford me the opportunity to practice more and further develop my abilities. Feeding my gun with quality, performance-tuned ammo wouldn't hurt a bit, either. My initial reloading will involve 9mm.

I've got most of my 'peripherals' sourced out, but the die selection seems to be a very subjective thing. I've read that the Hornady dies are excellent, but I'm also considering the Redding Competiton Pro Series dies as well. http://www.midwayusa.com/viewproduct/?productnumber=610299

I've decided that the RCBS Lock-out Die will be mandatory.

http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct/?productNumber=536792

I'm also pretty solid on the Powder Funnels Universal PTX:

http://powderfunnels.com/products.html

Given the inclusion of the RCBS Lock-out and Powder Funnels PTX dies, please relay your recommendations for the remaining 3 dies stations.

Any other comments or recommendations would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks to everyone for your time and consideration.

[blind bat]

I really like Redding dies. After purchasing a Competition Seating die I've decided they are now my go-to die vendor when I need to buy new. I'd suggest setting up the LNL without the case feeder until the bugs are worked out.

In my opinion the primer seating system is the Achilles heal of the LNL and maybe all progressives. I polished the seating punch with fine emery cloth and put a slight chamfer on the upper edge so it wouldn't get caught on the primer slide. I find the soft federal primers seat the best and weeding out S&B and mil crimp brass is a must. Keeping the primer slide area clean essential. All it takes is a little powder or a couple of brass shavings to jam up the system.

I generally load 400-500 rounds at a time. Before I start reloading I blow compressed air under the shell plate to clean out any dirt and powder. I also hold open the primer slide and blow out any crud that got down in there. Doing so makes for a generally drama free loading session.

My 9mm dies are setup like so:

Station 1: Lee Undersized Die (I'm going to try the Redding die at some point)

Station 2: Powder drop with old style (not sold anymore) Hornady .357" PTX insert. The new style PTX inserts have a bell that works better. I don't have the new style .355" die but the .357" works well enough for 9mm and 38.

Station 3: RCBS Lock-Out

Station 4: Redding Competition Seat die

Station 5: Redding Taper Crimp (only) die

[paul788]

One vote for Hornady's dies. Good products. Do not count on the Lockout die to save you. I managed to undercharge a case and bulged a barrel when I fired the next round thinking I had missed the plate. The low powder warning setup from Dillon is, in MY OPINION, a more accurate and reliable way to go.

YMMV

Paul

[a.roberts]

Hornady 3 die set with the addition of their taper crimp die.

I just look in every case to make sure the powder looks right.

[Shadowrider]

I like the Hornady dies too. They are a great value and look every bit as nice as the more expensive RCBS dies.

But I love the Redding Pro-Series. Just use the additional crimp die from Hornady or Redding, they are worth their weight in gold.

And FWIW, I sold my LNL and got a 650. The Dillon expander on the Dillon powder measure is vastly superior to Hornady's PTX setup. The Dillon setup actually sizes AND bells.

Edit to add: Blind Bat is correct about the primer seating. That's the biggest reason I sold my LNL and I tried every trick on the web to get it to work.

Edited April 7, 2011 by Shadowrider

[Jungo2]

Thanks for the great replies. Keep 'em coming. I appreciate the feedback concerning the ubiquitous Hornady vs. Dillon debate. The are exceptions, however the LNL seems to be the preferred press among those who've used both (the LNL and 650XL). Based on the totality of my reading, the LNL does seem to be the better mouse trap overall. I want to make certain that everything goes together and functions properly with an absolute minimum of cranial hemorrhaging. Ergo, I want to choose the correct equipment from the start. Reloading is not something that I want to do, but rather something that I need to do.

[noylj]

I had been using a Hornady progressive since they first came out (in the early '80s?) and used a 550 and 650. May have already commented above.

Anyway, one thing is that I NEVER had a case feeder on a Hornady (nor did I have any desire to buy one) and found the Dillon's to be awkward without a case feeder.

That being said, if the comments I have read are true, the Dillon works better with a case feeder (believe me, I do not want to use one without it) while the Hornady L-N-L has a base plate for the case feeder, but it does not appear to still be designed from the ground up for a case feeder.

Thus, if I was going in and knew that I couldn't be satisfied without a case feeder, I would probably buy Dillon 650.

I would not buy a progressive press with fewer than 5 stations. At the time, Hornady was, I think, the first with 5 stations in a press I could afford. That, and the case conversion was simply a shellplate. Dillon, I believe, had a four station press out. The field was basically Star, C-H or Hollywood, Dillon, and Hornady.

[Crunchy Frog]

You invited other comments and recommendations so here goes. I would not recommend a progressive press for a beginning reloader. I would start with a single stage press or perhaps a Lee Classic Turret and get some first hand experience learning each step of the process before you start tackling them all at once. You can buy the dies you want now because they will work in the single stage, turret or progressive. That's my two cents on a question you didn't ask.

After years of reloading on a single stager press (mostly with RCBS dies except for Dillon dies in 9mm) I purchased an LNL-AP this week. I ordered a set of Hornady dies in .38-.357 even though I have a set of RCBS dies in that caliber already-they were on sale at Midway and with the 100 free bullets they were a pretty good deal.

I am loading lead bullets for CAS. I've noticed that the Hornady #2 die does not flare the case near as much as my RCBS expansion die. I have the Hornady die at "maximum depth"-it is touching the shell plate to get the amount of flare that I want. If you are going to use the "powderfunnels.com" product you will probably not use the expander die anyway.

I was not 100% satisfied with the performance of the RCBS seating/crimp die (or the sizing die for that matter) which is why I sprung for the Hornady dies to begin with. At first I was having trouble with some bullets tipping over as they were entering the Hornady seating die. I ruined about 6 cases out of my first 100. Then I swapped the seating stem which may have cured the problem.

For some reason Hornady and RCBS pistol caliber dies (like .45 ACP and 9mm) are three die sets that employ a roll crimp. Each company sells a taper crimp die (I have one for my RCBS .45 dies). Later when I bought a 9mm pistol and needed dies I bought Dillons because it had a separate seat die and taper crimp die. Of course I didn't cotton on to the fact that it did not include an expander die (since of course the Dillon powder measure performs that function) so I still had to buy a fourth die (got one from Lee).

Lee offers a four die set for pistol calibers but I have read that Lee dies may be too short to operate properly in the LNL-AP. Have not tried it myself.

The Dillon dies might be a good choice since you won't need an expander die. I don't have a 9mm shellplate to try mine.

[jar]

I totally disagree with the advice to new reloaders to avoid progressives. If you load at the volume of a competition shooter, progressive is the only way to go. I started with a single stage based on similar advice, loaded 50 rounds on it and bought a progressive.

Sent from my PG06100 using Tapatalk

[a.roberts]

I had absolutely no experience reloading metallic cartridges.

First press was a LNL-AP, and it makes me smile like this:

[Jungo2]

Crunchy,

Thanks for taking the time to post. Great info.

As others have said, I shoot competitively - my monthly volume is 800-1000 rounds of 9mm - therefore the time required to produce that amount of ammo on a single stage press would either land me in divorce court or a mental institution. Likely, both, not necessarily in that order.

[Warhammer4k]

Oh no, you didn't drink the blue Kool-Aid?

Just kidding, I've used a Lock-n-Load AP for several years, and love it. Hornady has been pretty good with support, too. I've had to order spare/replacement parts a few times - almost without exception, due to my own stupidity/ignorance/clumsiness breaking stuff - and for every time I've had to pay, there's also been a time they sent parts at no charge.

If you want to reload more than just 9mm, you will appreciate the lower costs to load additional cartridges vs. Dillon. Not knocking Dillon - it's just a different sort of animal.

You might find it profitable to review this thread regarding the Universal PTX, which occurred a couple of years ago in this very forum: Includes post from the Universal PTX inventor

I'm not sure whether the "case neck expansion" thing really matters, but it may be worth some thought. The one reloading manual I have, Lee, only covers rifle reloading in great detail. On the other hand, I'm sure pistol brass wall thickness varies a bit (case neck thickness variation is why you expand rifle case necks). So maybe case "neck" expansion really is needed, even when reloading straight-wall cases.

Then again, I haven't discussed this issue with users of the Universal PTX. I've read several complaints about the clunkiness of the Hornady PTX parts.

[Jungo2]

Guys,

Thanks for all the help. I've posted this topic on 2 other forums and this one was by far the most responsive.

I ordered the Press and Case feeder today along with a number of peripherals. I also ordered the Powder Funnels PTX Die and the RCBS Lock-Out Die. This leaves 3 stations remaining on the press. I'm seriously considering these: http://www.midwayusa.com/viewproduct/?productnumber=610299

..or these:

http://www.midwayusa.com/viewproduct/default.aspx?productnumber=667162

Any comments or recommendations are supremely appreciated.

Thanks in advance.

[Warhammer4k]

The Hornady dies - no contest.

Custom Grade New Dimension dies are awesome. I have a set for .40 S&W. Here are the things I like vs. RCBS dies:

-Breakaway depriming pin (aka Zip Spindle). If you get a rock or piece of sand in the case, the decapping spindle comes loose and rises, instead of breaking or bending the depriming shaft. I've had that happen on my RCBS size dies.

-Bullet seating die does not require changing inserts for roundnose vs. flatnose/hollowpoint bullets. It has an innovative "floating" insert that guides the bullet to an upright position and seats it, because it touches the ogive or slope of the bullet rather than the nose.

The Redding dies are nice, but overkill. Vast overkill. The only good thing is, they include separate seat & crimp dies, so you don't have to buy your own if you want to seat & crimp in separate steps (which is the easy way to do it).

Do you really need to control bullet seating depth with a micrometer knob? I doubt it. You're not doing long-distance target shooting, are you? There are other things - such as press flex/slop - which will cause a few thousandths' variation in COAL, so you'll just end up chasing adjustments. Small COAL variations likely pale in comparison to other factors in determining shot accuracy.

Take the $100 you will save by passing up the Redding dies and buy a Hornady taper crimp die for the last station. You'll still have money left over. I don't think the Redding dies are remotely worth it.

[Jungo2]

Take the $100 you will save by passing up the Redding dies and buy a Hornady taper crimp die for the last station.

Thanks for the reply. Regarding your recommendation above, I'm confused as there is no available "last station". The RCBS Lock-out and Powder Funnel will occupy 2 stations and both the Hornady and Redding sets include 3 dies. Why is it preferable to have separate seating and crimping dies?

Primary goal: I'm looking for "Easy". I'm willing to pay extra for a given solution if it keeps me out of hell.

Edited April 8, 2011 by Jungo2

[blind bat]

The Hornady die set includes a sizing die, belling die, and combination seating/crimping die. The Redding set provides a sizing die, dedicated seating die and a dedicated crimping die. Generally, it works better to seat and crimp in separate stations on a progressive because the movement of the shell plate tends to give variances in crimp or OAL when trying to do both operations simultaneously. You can set up most combination seat/crimp dies to only seat by raising so that the taper doesn't contact the case mouth.

Another tip for you... When you set up your dies make sure you have cases in each position of the shell plate. If you try to set the dies with only a single case you will be out of adjustment when you start running the press.

[Shadowrider]

Guys,

Thanks for all the help. I've posted this topic on 2 other forums and this one was by far the most responsive.

I ordered the Press and Case feeder today along with a number of peripherals. I also ordered the Powder Funnels PTX Die and the RCBS Lock-Out Die. This leaves 3 stations remaining on the press. I'm seriously considering these: http://www.midwayusa.com/viewproduct/?productnumber=610299

..or these:

http://www.midwayusa.com/viewproduct/default.aspx?productnumber=667162

Any comments or recommendations are supremely appreciated.

Thanks in advance.

For 9mm, I'd also go with the Hornady dies. I'll also 2nd getting the taper crimp die. I didn't say it before, but I kept all my Hornady dies. I have them in .223, 9mm, .45, and .40. I bought so many because I like the dies, but the price and the free bullet offer was icing on the cake.

I love Redding dies but in a 9mm pistol round being loaded on a progressive, I agree the micrometer seating die is overkill. They also make that same set with their normal seating die, which is the one I have in .38/.357, and it's a good bit cheaper, but still pricey compared to Hornady. Precision rifle rounds loaded on a single stage, maybe worth it.

[Warhammer4k]

Take the $100 you will save by passing up the Redding dies and buy a Hornady taper crimp die for the last station.

Thanks for the reply. Regarding your recommendation above, I'm confused as there is no available "last station". The RCBS Lock-out and Powder Funnel will occupy 2 stations and both the Hornady and Redding sets include 3 dies. Why is it preferable to have separate seating and crimping dies?

Primary goal: I'm looking for "Easy". I'm willing to pay extra for a given solution if it keeps me out of hell.

Because trying to seat and crimp all in one go is kind of a pain in the ass. There are inevitably several steps of trial and error involved before you find the right adjustment to get the taper crimp you want, along with the seating depth you want. Amount of crimp is controlled by height of the die body, where the seating depth is controlled by the position of the seating plug in the seat/crimp die body. So, change the seating depth, and you have to start over again with the crimp amount, and vice versa. It becomes very tiring.

With separate seat and crimp dies, the two adjustments are entirely independent. Life is much easier that way.

This may be one of those things that only makes sense once you have the press and have played with it a bit.

As for the stations, here's how I think you said you wanted to do it:

1) Size/deprime

2) Powder-through-expander (aka PTX)

3) Powder check die (RCBS Lock-Out, Hornady Powder Cop, or similar)

That leaves two stations, one each for seating and crimping.

Perhaps you were wondering where you would put the expander die from the Hornady die set? Unfortunately, the answer is you wouldn't use it, if you are going to do powder-through-expander. That is sort of a down side to the PTX setup. Because pistol die sets usually include an expander die, you will end up with one die that you have no use for.

That is the reasoning behind the Redding Competition die set, which assumes use of a PTX of some sort. But, for the price of the Redding die set, you can buy the Hornady set, an extra taper crimp die, and still have money left over.

[Warhammer4k]

Another tip for you... When you set up your dies make sure you have cases in each position of the shell plate. If you try to set the dies with only a single case you will be out of adjustment when you start running the press.

I have a "dummy" round (no powder, no primer) set aside for each variation of a cartridge that I load on the LNL AP (different bullet profiles, varying OALs). When I've just started a batch of reloads, I insert the dummy round of the desired COAL in the final stage (taper crimp), just as the first new reload reaches the bullet seating stage. That way, the forces are as they will be later, when all stations are full with reloads.

I find that leaving two or more stations empty can cause rounds to seat 0.005" or more shorter than desired.

The dummy rounds are also a convenient way of adjusting the seater die. I put the dummy round in the seating station, loosen the lock nut on the seating plug and raise it several turns, then raise the press head. Next, I turn down the seating plug until it contacts the dummy round. Now the seating plug is within a turn or two of where it needs to be to load to that OAL.

These things keep bullet seating nice and consistent.

[Jungo2]

War, Shadow, Blind Bat and everyone else,

Thanks so much for all the help. In totality, the quality of the information provided was excellent. Blind Bat, the tip about populating all of the stations with empty cases during adjustment was particularly appreciated. That's the kind of stuff you don't usually find in any book and it likely will save me a trip to hell and back.

I had difficulty finding Hornady New Dimension dies in stock; I also had some difficulty finding the single Hornady crimp die. Subsequently, I purchased a set of the Redding Pro Series Carbide dies: http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct/?productNumber=547339

This is the set without the (overkill) Micrometer adjustment and is significantly cheaper. For an additional $40 or so, this set gives me separate seater and crimp dies and they are generally regarded to equal or exceed the quality of the Hornady dies.

I pretty much have everything covered except a good scale and the actual loading components. I'm looking for the new, Hornady LNL Bench Scale http://www.midwayusa.com/viewproduct/?productnumber=340674 , but I can't find it in stock anywhere. I'll keep looking. I've got plenty of brass, so I'm looking for bullets, primers and powder. Lots of great recipes here for minor PF competition loads. My first (small) runs will be with 124gr. and 147gr. Montana Gold bullets. The 115gr. factory stuff is not very forgiving on steel. A less-than-optimal hit won't always drop the heavier targets. I'm told the heavier loads are better in this regard with more manageable recoil.

Thanks again and best regards to everyone.

Edited April 10, 2011 by Jungo2

[Jungo2]

I received my LNL AP this week and finally had a chance to set it up yesterday. I've read many recommendations on several threads, including this one, that separate seater and crimp dies are generally preferable. However, after seeing the press, it's evident that separate seating and crimp dies would require the physical insertion of the bullet on stage 3, rather than stage 4. This would seem to be rather cumbersome as it would require reaching over the seated cartridge in stage 4 to place the bullet in stage 3. Is this process as difficult as I imagine it to be?

Thanks

[jar]

I place the bullet as the ram is moving up, after it indexes. I seat and crimp in station 4 because I don't use PTX. This works well for me.

[noylj]

Jungo2:

My set-up is:

1) size/deprimer

1.5) seat primer

2) expand and powder drop

3) RCBS Lock-Out die

4) Seat bullet

5) Crimp.

I have no idea what makes you think that you have to seat the bullet in station 3.

If I can't expand and charge the case in one step, then 2 is for expanding/bellin and 3) is for charging.

[Jungo2]

noylj,

Your die placement mirrors mine. Having never before done this, I assumed that the bullet is placed into the case when the piston is in the lowered position. This is how it's been done in most of the videos I've seen. It now seems that most users with this type of setup place the bullet during a pause on the upstroke - after the press has indexed the casing to station 4. I imagined this to be a possibility, but wanted validation from experienced users.I haven't actually been able to try the press as my dies won't arrive until tomorrow. Experience is everything.

Thanks for the reply.

Edited April 18, 2011 by Jungo2

[noylj]

Jungo2:

It is real easy to look down at the case and see the charge when in "station 3.5" and place the bullet on the case. Station 3.5 is right under the operator's nose for easy inspection of charge height in case. The "problem" is that the rotation and ram movement up to station 4.0 can nudge the bullet off the case or tilt it. One either sets the bullet in the case while the ram is down at "station 3.5" or you pause on the upstroke to align the bullet.

I see stage 3 as being the ram up and the case at station 3 (where one would put an RCBS Lock-Out Die or the powder charging die if Station 2 had the expander die), such that one can't put the bullet on at station 3.

When I read your post, I thought that you were putting the bullet on at "station 2.5" using you right hand and causing a cramped reloading cycle.

The only presses that I know of currently in production that do not have the "half stations" are the 550B (manual indexing) and the 1050 (all functions are done when the ram (and the toolhead) comes down).