scandog Posted March 18, 2004 Share Posted March 18, 2004 I just had someone point out a rule in the book that I guess I never picked up on. On page 33. 19. PROPER USE OF COVER: If cover is available, the shooter must use it! More than 50% of the shooter’s upper torso must be behind cover while engaging threat targets and/or reloading. If the shooter is shooting from low cover, one knee must be on the ground while shooting. When using vertical cover such as a wall/barricade, 100% of the shooter’s legs/feet must be behind cover while engaging threat targets and/or reloading. Every match I have shot including nationals required you to duck back behind cover to reload. According to the rule book, we never needed to. You can maintain your shooting position and reload. Do you force your shooters to duck back behind cover while reloading? Has anyone asked HQ about this? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duane Thomas Posted March 18, 2004 Share Posted March 18, 2004 You missed the part of the LGB that states: Tactical reloads, or even slide-lock reloads, must be accomplished behind cover if available. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snokid Posted March 18, 2004 Share Posted March 18, 2004 I guess Duane is agreeing with you? Looks to me the proper use of cover is 50% of upper body and 100% of torso behind cover. and if I do that while reloading then I'm using cover. sno Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scandog Posted March 18, 2004 Author Share Posted March 18, 2004 Duane, I didn;t miss that part. I was looking at PROPER USE OF COVER. I don't see how it matters what type of reload you do. This rule states you can have 50% of you upper body sticking out while doing a reload. It seems this would support the idea IDPA is a game not training. If it were training, I would think it would have stated 100% behind cover for reloads. Just a little food for thought. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Nesbitt Posted March 18, 2004 Share Posted March 18, 2004 I think the way they explained it a couple of Nationals ago was: You had to use cover for the unengaged targets. If you had engaged a target on the far right of the bay and then were engaging targets at the far left of the bay when you made your reload, you didn't have to duck back so far so you were not exposed to the target on the far right of the bay, only the yet unengaged targets on the far left of the bay. Does that help? Bill Nesbitt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vincent Posted March 18, 2004 Share Posted March 18, 2004 This was one of the big eye-openers for me when I attended the 2002 IDPA Nationals. At my local clubs they had also always made shooters get 100% behind cover for all reloads. At Nationals they were staying behind cover from unengaged targets per the rulebook (50% uppper torso, 100% legs and feet, etc). This cost us some time at the big show so we took this knowledge back to our clubs and now they run by the rulebook. Many shooters still get 100% behind cover for all reloads which is fine, it just shouldn't be mandatory. One of the other things I noticed was that shooting over the top of low cover is allowed much more at Nationals than at our local clubs. Over the top is almost never allowed here, but it seems pretty common elsewhere. It all depends on the clubs and MD's. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Perez Posted March 18, 2004 Share Posted March 18, 2004 Looks to me the proper use of cover is 50% of upper body and 100% of torso behind cover. and if I do that while reloading then I'm using cover. Duane,I didn;t miss that part. I was looking at PROPER USE OF COVER. I don't see how it matters what type of reload you do. This rule states you can have 50% of you upper body sticking out while doing a reload. The rule states: More than 50% of the shooter’s upper torso must be behind cover while engaging threat targets and/or reloading. Therefore , less than 50% of the upper body may be exposed while engaging or reloading. Now the bigger questions :shooting around a wall , if you divide the 'upper body' vertically down the spinal column and move it over enough to satisfy the rules - is the shooter using cover? Does that method open the potential for "use cover calls" and /or a PE?? Is there a fail safe method to avoid this pitfall??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scandog Posted March 19, 2004 Author Share Posted March 19, 2004 Mark, sorry I left out more than. That is already a judgement call by the SO. More or less than 50% is different for every shooter. I think we all tend to cheat a little more to the less side. I am not saying this is a bad thing. At our last match I was telling people to use 100% cover during reloads. I didn't know until a couple days ago I was wrong. If we are shooting "Real Life" type situations, reloads should be done entirely behind cover, 100%. In a gunfight are you going to stand partialy in the open and reload hoping you dong get shot in the process? The catch is the rule book states what cover is. Then it states you have to use cover when shooting or reloading if it is available. There is no difference between cover for reloads and shooting. Don't get me wrong. I don't agree with this rule, but it is spelled out so we will have to change the way we enforce cover at our matches. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larrys1911 Posted March 20, 2004 Share Posted March 20, 2004 If we are shooting "Real Life" type situations, reloads should be done entirely behind cover, 100%. In a gunfight are you going to stand partialy in the open and reload hoping you dong get shot in the process? Thats your opinion Scandog, not mine. Whats worse to you. loosing track of someone you just put a bullet in or seeing them while you spend a second stuffing more BBs in the gun? Answer is, it depends on the situation (it always does). If there is no incomming fire, you watch the tgt. If there is, you do what you have to. The problem with bringing "RL tactics" into anything is there are so many "opinions" on what the correct way to do things is and the situation is so fluid. there is no "always Right, always Wrong" answer. It was my understanding that someone brought up the point that you should never give up ground that you paid for if you didnt have too. and that was kinda how it got changed. That story may be BS, I dont know. SO back to the rules..... The rule says you only have to have 50.00001% of your upper torso behind cover when reloading or shooting. Bills answer was the right one. If there is a hole in it you dont have to go 100% behind cover from that tgt to reload, if it hasnt been engaged you shouldnt be exposed to "that" tgt at all. Larry P Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tightloop Posted March 20, 2004 Share Posted March 20, 2004 It was George Patton who said he did not want to pay for the same real estate twice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scandog Posted March 21, 2004 Author Share Posted March 21, 2004 Larry, You point is well taken as we had this same discusion at our match yesterday. I have a question. Where in the rule book does it say you can't be exposed to a target you are not shooting at? I was tryng to find it and was not having any luck. Proper use of cover is less than 50% of your body exposed. I can't find a rule to state when you have to use more or less. Where does it state you have to duck behind cover or not expose yourself to a target you have not yet engaged? I can't find that either. Don't get me wrong. I am just trying to figure out what I am suppose to enforce and when. I just finished running a two day indoor match. I had shooters shooting through a 6 inch wide window opening. The bottom of the window is about 3.5 feet high. As I read the cover rule, the shooter can stan directly in the middle of the window and both shoot and reload. This would also mean there is no shooting order as all targets were about the same distance. We had some shooters that ducked and used 100% cover for reloads. Others did their reload in the middle of the window. Were either of them wrong? If so, can you point me to the rule that makes one of these wrong? Thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GRW Posted March 22, 2004 Share Posted March 22, 2004 This is an interesting point….in several of the IDPA matches I’ve shot there have been stages where multiple targets were engaged though a window where less than 50% of the shooters body was exposed to all targets. The R.O.’s instructions were to engage targets by “slicing the pie” and perform reloads behind cover, shown as 100% cover. It would seem that per the IDPA rules a shooter could stand in front of the window because more that 50% of their body was behind cover. But, could the course of fire mandate that the shooter use more than 50% of cover for target engagement and reloads? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Perez Posted March 22, 2004 Share Posted March 22, 2004 But, could the course of fire mandate that the shooter use more than 50% of cover for target engagement and reloads? yes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larrys1911 Posted March 22, 2004 Share Posted March 22, 2004 Larry,You point is well taken as we had this same discusion at our match yesterday. I have a question. Where in the rule book does it say you can't be exposed to a target you are not shooting at? I was tryng to find it and was not having any luck. Proper use of cover is less than 50% of your body exposed. I can't find a rule to state when you have to use more or less. Where does it state you have to duck behind cover or not expose yourself to a target you have not yet engaged? I can't find that either. Don't get me wrong. I am just trying to figure out what I am suppose to enforce and when. I just finished running a two day indoor match. I had shooters shooting through a 6 inch wide window opening. The bottom of the window is about 3.5 feet high. As I read the cover rule, the shooter can stan directly in the middle of the window and both shoot and reload. This would also mean there is no shooting order as all targets were about the same distance. We had some shooters that ducked and used 100% cover for reloads. Others did their reload in the middle of the window. Were either of them wrong? If so, can you point me to the rule that makes one of these wrong? Thanks It doesnt. Ya know IDPA is much more restrictive than IPSC is. I Shoot both, I like Both. The problem with IDPA (it will always be a problem even when the rule book eventually looks like the US Tax Code) is that IDPA "IS" more restrictive than IPSC I hate rules that say "you cant expose yourself to but one tgt at a time" etc As a CoF designer THAT SUCKS, From a Practical point IT SUCKS. IDPA will never be able to simplify the rules to take everything into account. You are thinking of CoFs that have you coming over cover sorta. You will obviously be exposed on those but not more than 50%. You shoudnt jump in front of a window and shoot through a window, you pie it just like a door or wall. No there is not a rule. Thats what I (and most others) have ALWAYS told people in the Description. If you dont, you earned your PE. No its not in the rule book. We would need a rule written for every freakin CoF possible OR we would have to have cookie cutter CoFs. I dont like either solution, Id rather listen to everyone argue over if its right or wrong to do X. We never run into these problems, people do what they are told in the CoF and IF you are curious about something being "legal" to do, ask THAT SO if its not in the CoF Description. The rule book will hopefully answer SOME of the clarification problems but I dont think it will ever answer all of them. Sometimes the SO will have to make the decision, & the MD will have to back him up, and the shooter will have to live with the decision. And then it will be posted here and we can all arm chair SO/MD and talk about how silly it is that it wasnt addressed in the rule book! Larry P Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scandog Posted March 23, 2004 Author Share Posted March 23, 2004 Larry, Although I was having fun just trying to get people to think about this, if you are shooting an opening that amounts to a prothole. 6 inches wide by 12 inches tall, what is priority. The closest or the first seen. By standing directly in the center of the opening you are still using proper cover. This is the situation I had. I could have made it a window, but I wanted to try a porthole. They are more fun with a flashlight. My take on this is the proper amount of cover is used standing directly in the middle or to the side per the rule book. <50% rule. I actually had not even thought of comparing it to USPSA or IPSC. The other point that we see so often is to ask if you can do something. The problem is if you think of something that may give you an advantage, you don't want everyone to know before you try it. We see in the tactical journal that we should use more props and less written course description. Just a little more to think about. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ron durham Posted March 23, 2004 Share Posted March 23, 2004 Scandog SIMPLE SOLUTION ........don't use ports or very small openings to shoot through. I have looked from one end of my house to the other and outside and damn if I can find a port anywhere. Remember real life situation. Ports are USPSA sillyness and don't belong in defensive shooting. Now you don't have a problem with tactical priority or using cover properly. That is just my view anyway. Ron Durham Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scandog Posted March 23, 2004 Author Share Posted March 23, 2004 Ron, don't assume your house is the same as everyones. Many front doors have a window that is very similar to the opening I just described. Openings between book shelves, Fences,... There are many out there that could apply. The Idea is to expose shooters to many different situations. I guess USPSA was not that silly. I have tried hard not to make the comparison in here to USPSA as it turns to a bashing event and I don't even shoot USPSA. It is another game. I am trying to figure out how to play this game within the rules as they are written, not based on what people feel is correct. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ron durham Posted March 23, 2004 Share Posted March 23, 2004 Scandog: I guess if I look hard enough I can find a crack in a fence or something similar to that; however I don't think in real life I would shoot thru a window pane, boy that 3/4 inch door wouldn't give me too much cover would it.......Now enough of the sillyness, your whole premise was creating a problem that shouldn't exist and I will be glad to repeat what I said.....all you are doing shooting thru little tiny shooting areas is creating other problems. I don't call giving a shooter something different. I call that starting problems and here lies one of the problems of IDPA. How many words were wasted on the proper use of cover what is very clear in the rule book but yet by shooting thru the small ports you have created a cover and tactical order problem. My suggestion again is to get rid of the damn ports. I have shot USPSA for 13 years and am not bashing USPSA.....love it to death. Ports belong in USPSA, ports don't belong in IDPA. Just my opinion. Ron Durham Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NWFlorida DPS Posted March 23, 2004 Share Posted March 23, 2004 I might suggest shooting the same "porthole" scenario with Airsoft or paintball/SIMS. Having 3 guns pointed at the port "might" make you reconsider your exposure. We ran a Airsoft stage after our match last weekend. We just replaced the paper targets with live "badguys" Its funny to see how much more important "cover" was to people when they shot it with Airsoft. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
geezer-lock Posted March 23, 2004 Share Posted March 23, 2004 The LGB has this line under the heading of "Courses of Fire", This basic criteria is as follows: 5. Vision and physical barriers should be used to force the shooter to shoot from the specified positions rather than the use of fault lines (shooting ports also work well and tend to eliminate SO judgment calls). geezer-lock Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
geezer-lock Posted March 23, 2004 Share Posted March 23, 2004 ...and further down the list is this: "9. Targets should be engaged in tactical order whenever possible, i.e. either near to far or shoot the first target that's visible when you lean out from behind cover (some common sense should be used here)." geezer-lock Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
geezer-lock Posted March 23, 2004 Share Posted March 23, 2004 ...and Mark Twain said: "If common sense is so common, why don't more people have it". Be safe, have fun geezer-lock Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted March 23, 2004 Share Posted March 23, 2004 OK...rookie question here. It sounds like it has been established that reloads don't have to be 100% behind cover unless specified. And, I read here that once a target has been engaged, then you don't need to take cover from that target. My question... You can engage a target with one round, but not nuetralize it, correct? So, if I run dry after putting one shot on a target (having engaged that target), do I have to seek cover from that target while I do a reload? Further...if I have engaged a target after the first shot, can I expose myself to that target while shooting the second shot (or third...)? Note: Just asking about the rules of the game...not RL. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snokid Posted March 23, 2004 Share Posted March 23, 2004 Nice question Flex.... Well just going by the rulebook. You can engage a target with one round, but not nuetralize it, correct? Yes, the hit would have to be a -3 or a miss. So, if I run dry after putting one shot on a target (having engaged that target), do I have to seek cover from that target while I do a reload? This is kind of tricky, but you would have to stay 50% upper body and 100% lower behind cover while doing the reload not just to that target but any unshot targets also. Further...if I have engaged a target after the first shot, can I expose myself to that target while shooting the second shot (or third...)? no, while you are shooting at it you still have to use cover (50/100%) "disclaimer" These answers come from reading the rulebook not the spirit of idpa. Bob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted March 24, 2004 Share Posted March 24, 2004 OK then...so you can only expose yourself after you have put two* on a target...not just "engaged" it, correct? * ...or whatever number of hits the target requires (and, please...no comments on "exposing yourself" ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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