New Shooters - Keeping them coming back

[Duane Thomas]

I never liked the idea of these kind of stages where your not aloud to look at the course of fire before you shoot it. I think that this kind of stage is just plain unfair. After all, someone has to set the stage up and people have to paste and reset targets

For a surprise stage, the designer sets up and doesn't shoot the stage him/herself.

[Duane Thomas]

Gary:

Great minds think alike - we have a skills class set up for a Saturday afternoon, and advertised it at the match. No takers yet.

That surprises the hell out of me. At our club they recently announced a one-day skills clinic. And it costs money, too. The class was totally booked in, like, two days, with people on a waiting list for any cancellations. They'll probably have to schedule another one soon.

[KentG]

Lets see first thing is having a friendly, encouraging and cute MD like BillD. Secondly, dont be range Nazi's with new shooters and by that I mean a shooter who has been to shooting less than a full season. Of course saftey is first but most new shooters are not really in contention to take first place (or regular ones like me) so if they push cover, dont necessarily ding them and push them even farther down. Or if they dont move fast enough after the draw, dont reload from total cover or some of the other minor things that you dont expect a regular shooter to do without penalty. Let them know but dont pile on penalties just cause you can. Make sure they have fun but still point out things that will be penalized in the future. There isnt any $$ involved so cut them some slack.

[Gun Geek]

We do cut lots of slack.

About the only thing they get a procedural for is shooting out of tactical priority or sequence, or (typically on standards) if they don't shoot targets in the order specified by the CoF. Cover, reloads, etc, lots of slack.

Duane:

We didn't run any surprise stages until we got the complaint about unfair advantage. Then when we ran surprise stage we got complaints that they didn't know how to shoot the stage because they couldn't see someone else shoot it. (Can't make them all happy can we?)

I'm surprised about the class as well. I'm going ot do a little 1:1 marketing, so we'll see how that goes.

Keep the comments coming!

Thanks!

[Clyde]

Be their with Bells ON

[geezer-lock]

It seems that most of us agree that the newbies need special attention on their first match and may need assistance for several matches before they are fully confident in their pistol craft.

I go somewhat further and do not issue any penalties to a first time shooter. After the range is safe I walk them through the COF and point out the problem areas and encourage the other members of the squad to impart a little wisdom.

When we are getting squaded up before a match I try to make sure that there is a really competent score keeper and at least two RO qualified folks in each squad. Then I take all of the new guys with me. My squad usually finishes about an hour behind everyone else but it keeps the scoring/safety/mentoring in one place and lets the “super squad” go play.

As MD I often build stages that have two strings of fire. The way to make it fly is to have two target arrays (left and right or high and low), that way you don’t have to stop and tape between strings. Just reload and reset the timer and go. Keeps the round count up somewhat and also can be used to even thing up for the southpaws.

geezer-lock

[fullautodave]

I think another way to NOT intimidate a new shooter is to keep course design "more realistic". And I don't mean to start another fire here, but "realistic" in accordance with IDPA's definition. If you have a scenario where your changing a tire in the middle of the night and three badguys are sneaking up on you, instead of requiring the shooter shoot all three in tactical sequence two rounds each and then re-engage with head shots after you reach cover in tactical priority. Just have them shoot all three while going to or from cover. I think thats' what I would do if it were me in "real" life, not 1-1-2-1-1-1-1-1,and on and on and etc.

And I think you can make scenarios whre there is a choice of when and how to do a reload. Set up a string where the less experienced shooters can do a slide lock reload, but leave room for the more experienced shooters can do a tac load if they feel it is an advantage. Stage design should say, Here is a problem, show me how to solve it following the rules. Not go here then go there and do this then do that.

I agree with the others that you should cut the new guys a little slack, but they are going to get beat and some of them in my experience can't deal with this and won't come back. Police officers can be perfect examples of this. But if two days after the new guy gets spanked at the match and he still don't know what he supposed to do on stage 3 then we are fighting an uphill battle.

Dave

[MBaneACP]

I agree with FullAuto-D...scenario based stages seem to be less intimidating than just "engage targets 1-3, then target 4." I think it's because even newbies can quickly see the utility in what they're doing, and if they do poorly, they can easily see the *point* in getting better.

As a veteran match director and stage designer, I also know the reason we get away from scenario stages is that they're more time-consuming to design, and if you're doing it by yourself week-in and week-out, it sucks. I was thinking that for one stage maybe we should ask the newbies for a scenario, which we design--ideally with the newbies' help--and run at the next match. Never tried this, but am going to see if it's possible.

Also, I realize that a some IDPA clubs really, really like to see their SOs scream and shout at shooters for all sorts of reasons ("Cover!" "Wrong Target!" "Zipper Unzipped!" whatever...the two shouted commands I exempt from this observation are "Finger!," for finger in the trigger guard while moving, and, of course, "STOP!"). Setting aside the fact that I have seen a gun *dropped* by a startled new shooter after a shout, lots of shouting may make the SO feel like a stud, but it doesn't do much good for the shooter, especially a new shooter. That ain't the best path to learning, or to having newbies want to come back.

Finally, amen to the Range Nazi comment! They sucked in USPSA; they suck in IDPA.

Michael B

[geezer-lock]

Dave,

Course design is often at the base of arguments about how things are done, regardless of the shooting discipline. I mostly go for the “skills test” type of stage when I am trying to avoid “dance steps” (go there, do that). In the COF notes I usually insert the phrase “reload behind cover as necessary using any legal IDPA method”. Some folks like that, others prefer to have it spelled out.

The LGB makes the statement, “Complexity is the enemy of good course design.” and I couldn’t agree more. If the questions keep coming after the walk through there is likely something amiss. I try to submit the stage drawing to several shooters and ask for opinions well in advance of match day. I usually get good comments that lead to revising the layout or adding instruction to clarify the issue.

Remember that not every COF will “simulate a possible real life scenario”. The rules of competition allow COF’s to “test skills that might reasonably be used in a real life self-defense confrontation”. To use the example you cite a skills stage would not have any verbiage in the COF about changing tires or referring to bad guys. Rather the COF would specify a starting position (Start at position 1 with one knee on the ground, both hands on the barricade), describe the required engagement (Engage T1, T2 & T3 with two rounds each in tactical sequence) and other details (move to cover at position 2 and engage T1, T2 & T3 with two rounds to the head as they appear). That is a skills test and sounds like something I might do next time!

Be safe, have fun,

Geezer-lock

[fullautodave]

Geezer:

I agree this example is a skills test, but what skills? Shooting or memory? And I am not saying that a skills test or standards don't have a place in IDPA but, lets don't confuse them with scenarios. El Prez is as close to mixing them up as I would go. I have not been to any of the "self defense" schools so maybe I am un-informed, but in my described scenario, do you mean to tell me you are going too engage the bad guys in tactical sequence and then tactical priority? I don't think so. The best I would hope I could do is run for cover and shoot each one until they quit being bad guys. What I would probably do is empty two magazines without getting my gun out of the holster and scaring the shit out of everybody.

Just because the LGB says we can use skills test is no reason to use them. The LGB is a guideline, not a roadmap. In order to promote your club and keep shooters coming back you must give them what they want. In my experience, the only ones that want standards and skills tests are the ones that are real good at that kind of shooting. I believe that if you want to become a better shooter, that is the stuff you need to shoot, but most people ( myself included ) don't like it. I try to practice twice a week and standards is an easy way to practice and a good way to measure your improvement. When I pay an entry fee and travel to a match, I want to shoot "real life" scenarios, not a skill test.

Dave

[Gun Geek]

Guys,

I'm glad to have this amount of discussion. Please keep it coming.

I have a little perspective to add, which is what started this thread in the first place. New shooters seem to regard anything that tests the mental side of the sport as intimidating. Scenario stages are taxing because there are usually tactical priority issues (slicing the pie), proper use of cover, and sometimes movement. Though we do not give PEs here, we do explain that they did something that is against the rules, and WHY it is against the rules (i.e. don't want to be exposing yourself to multiple targets, etc). Many standards tend to be intimidating because they are usually tricky about tactical sequence, or have a no-shoot covering the all but a 1" square of the target.

I think what they want to see is simple CoFs with very few "gotchas" and lots of reactive targets. They want trigger time, not nessecarily brain time. They are typically new to shooting as well as new to IDPA.

Also, just for the sake of discussion - at our last match we spent lots of time both explaining before the stage, and after the stage the CoF, then why they fouled it up. This did 2 things - First it took forever. Second, a couple of people said they though the post fire walk through made them feel singled out.

I know, guys, I don't feel this way, but then I'm (those of us on this forum) are a little more hard core about this.

Problem is that there probably aren't enough of us around to grow the sport, that's why I worry about keeping new recruits coming in the door.

How about this idea. What if we run FUN only matches - timed and scored (add some stress), but not much about it is "Tactical" or "Defensive"? This will satisfy the need for trigger time, and get people hooked/looking for more. I can't say that this idea is original, it is the message that comes right out of the opening of Michael Bane's show Shooting Gallery: A kid and his Dad go to a county fair shooting gallery and shoot a .22 at a metal duck - Next shot is a guy geared up and advancing on a target with an AR. Back to the shooting gallery, back to something more modern and agressive, etc.

Thoughts?

[fullautodave]

Thats what I am talking about, simpler COFs. Scenarios that don't need a lot of explaining how to shoot it. Like my example ( not mine originally ) here is what is happenning, now go solve it. I don't think we need to bog it down with lots of "directions". Go to the basics. Shoot from cover, shoot from concelment, and don't get "caught" in the open with an empty gun. That is not all that hard to explain or understand. Its when you go telling people when and where to reload that makes it confusing. Tactical priority/tactical sequence, yada yada yada. I am not saying there is not a place for these procedures, but if I wanted to go shoot PPC then thats where I would go. The biggest problem with the rulebook and not just IDPA's is people want to take every rule and pick them apart. Don't make IDPA or USPSA either one complicated, just go back to basics. I agree with Michael, it is PITA to design four or five COF every month that you have not used before, but just go to basics.

Dave

[kschwan]

As a pretty new shooter I can say that not putting the new guy (or girl) first is a good thing. No matter what your level you will learn from watching others go faster. If a new person is scared to ask questions( and they should not be) it may give them a chance to see how someone else shoots and reloads on the stage. I think pairing up newbies with exp shooters is a good Idea. I am lucky to shoot with a Great group of shooters who are all trying to help out each other. This has made a big difference in help me come back.

Kschwan

[geezer-lock]

Gun Geek,

I think that you can see that there is a wide disparity in view points about what should be presented at a match. Dave wants only “real life” scenarios, I like that but I also enjoy the skill tests. The folks at your club are intimidated by scenarios and want something less complicated.

The plain fact is that you get all of that in most matches. If your shooters don’t understand tactical order then tell them to shoot near to far. If you want someone to use cover but don’t want to test them with slicing the pie, use a port. Have a couple of side (fun?) matches that are not included in the match count to let folks get warmed up. Many clubs have a FUNdamentals day where they work out things like target order, shooting from retention and such. I bet if you posted a notice that you were going to do such a thing you would have a crowd. It is often the best attended “event” that a club puts on.

It is unfortunate that our language is often not adequate to properly describe what we mean. Every endeavor has terminology and slang that is used by those that have been around a while. If you want to be in the know you have to learn the language. IDPA has buzz words that people have to learn if they are going to shoot in IDPA competition.

In order to compete one must understand what is REQUIRED on a stage. You may not always like what is set up and it might not fit your definition of “real life” or “tactical”. I have shot many stages that I thought were just plain ridiculous. Likely as not shooters will not “get it” the first few times out (I didn’t, I dropped mags all over the place), but if they are interested and get some encouragement, they will probably come back.

It sounds to me like you are encouraging and listening to your shooters. Work them through the thing until they understand the IDPA way of competition.

Be safe, have fun,

Geezer-lock

[the duck of death]

Be friendly & encouraging, praise when a good stage is shot and explain when they have problems. Discuss things with new people and do it with a smile on your face. Make the experience a pleasurable one. Never act superior or all knowing. Remember you started out just like they are doing.

[MBaneACP]

You know, Geek made me think of something (God forbid!).

Most of us "older gentlemen" (I was gonna say decrepit old f@#&s, but, hey, I'm trying to be a better person...although not very hard) started shooting back in the day when you could just head out and plink. We grew up doing fun shooting stuff, so we came to competition with a different worldview than today's new shooters. Also, IPSC back at its start was Big Fun. None of us had much of a clue, and the sport was so new nobody was very far removed from being a "newcomer."

I'm worried about the present state of scenario-based practical pistol, precisely because the fun factor seems to have disappeared in a lot of sections of the country. A match director took me to task a couple of weeks ago, saying that "rules are the heart, the soul and the raison d'etra of competition." Okay, so he was articulate; I believe, however, that the *competitors* are the heart, soul and raison d'etra of competition. One of the reasons I was not elected president of USPSA a few years back, aside from my obnoxious personality and relentless lack of tact, was I said at a big meeting at the Nationals something to the effect that if all the range officers in the world vanished on Friday night, we'd still go shoot a match on Saturday morning. We shot matches long before there were range officers and thick rulebooks. However, if all the shooters in the world vanished on Friday night, would the range officers show up Saturday morning and officiate themselves? Okay, tactless and probably overstated, but these sports have to be about the SHOOTERS...USPSA has its own problems, but IDPA is carrying a lot of "tactical" baggage.

Ah well...

Michael B

[tightloop]

Did you shoot IPSC when the wars were going on. You had to be a range lawyer to go to a match andnot get pencil whipped in the distance from the line to the scoring table. It is the well defined rules which keep USPSA going. I admit there was a certain elation in the old days when you "found" the key and kept it for yourself till something bypassed it. That kind of behavior made lots of enemies among the troops, however.

The manner in which it is structured to day seem to allow a certain amount of mandatory administration while at the same time allowing the competitors to at least think they can try to game the stage/match if they can... give and take on each side.

IDPA has not yet found that balance...wonder if it will??

[dajarrel]

What I have read here is good stuff. If I may offer what we do at our club as a confirmation.

1. when a new shooter comes to shoot. Welcome them. Don't let them stand in a corner and wonder what is going on. I have a habit of wanting to talk to my friends, but they will be there all the time. This is the new guys first time.

2. Show them the COF and explain the basic rules. IDPA has safety meetings and USPSA has shooter meetings typically discussing safety (The first and prime priority) but not alot of how to play the game. (And remember, it is a game)

3. Like one of the previous posters said "except for safety commands, don't yell at a new guy" Here I am, nervous as a pimp in church, with a gun running around having the time of my life doing all the safe things and shooting lots of bullets and some %*&^&$ starts yelling in my ear?

4. When the shooter comes to the line, make sure they understand the COF. Afterward, tell them how they performed.

5. Encourage them to walk. What is the hurry?

6. Don't ding them with 8000 procedurals the first time they shoot. It's kinda discouraging to hit all the targets and zero a stage because your big toe was across the line. Point it out and move on.

7. Keep the new guys/gals coming. You never know, you may have the next Brian Enos or TGO in the rough stepping up to your line. Make them want to come back.

just my $.02 worth

dj

[geezer-lock]

When I started “combat shooting” the rules were “shoot from back here, keep your pistol pointed that-a-way and go like hell”! Most of us were still shooting wheel guns and within a few weeks the equipment race was on. The round counts keep going up and there was no such thing as a stock gun class. During all the growth years the rule book got bigger as the stakes got higher. Arbitration of disputes started to take more time downrange than shooting.

More rules have not stopped the disputes they just shifted the focal point. In IDPA the stakes are so low that the disputes are pointless. Even at the nationals the most you can win is a trophy and bragging rights. Every shooter has an opportunity to get the MD involved and the MD is the ONLY official that can make such judgment calls as unfair conduct, illegal equipment or unsportsmanlike conduct. Disqualification for multiple safety violations can ONLY be made by the MD.

You are in control of your local matches. You can’t control what happens at other clubs but YOU establish what the environment is at home. Emphasize to your new shooters what the rules are and help them learn. Make sure that they understand that other clubs can and likely will do things differently. Most of your new shooters will never travel to another match but they will keep coming back to your club if they are treated fairly.

I printed the following lines from the LGB in BIG type and plan to give a copy to every SO at every match I run:

“The purpose of an IDPA Safety Officer is to assist the competitor so he/she can complete the course of fire safely and with as much enjoyment as possible. The purpose is NOT to hover over the shooter and treat him/her like a child and look for every possible opportunity to assess the shooter a procedural penalty.”

Be safe, have fun

Geezer-lock

[GRD]

Good thread. I've been lurking a while and just wanted to step in and say thanks for the great discussions. We're starting up a new IDPA club in Maine, this will be the first practical shooting club in the state (...sort of, I think there's a SASS club nearby...) and we hope to make it a good one. We have alot of green people on our staff, but everyone is eager to make this the best we can. The informatioon and debate thrown around here has been INVALUABLE to us in starting this club up.

Thanks folks!

"The purpose of an IDPA Safety Officer is to assist the competitor so he/she can complete the course of fire safely and with as much enjoyment as possible. The purpose is NOT to hover over the shooter and treat him/her like a child and look for every possible opportunity to assess the shooter a procedural penalty.”

Best line in the rulebook.

- Gabe