S&W accuracy

[50GI-Jess]

Hi all,

I was wondering if any of you guys, has ever truely tested your various models for their potential accuracy? Being into Bianchi Cup style shooting myself, I've tested many S&W revolvers, especially L-frames with either 4X or 3-7 X pistol scopes at 50 yds.

This has almost been an obsession of mine the past 25 yrs. One of my many pet loads consisted of a HDY 125 XTPFP and 4,9 gr. of Titegroup. One of my 686's would group between 3/4" to 1,5" at 50 yds, when it was new 50-60.000 rds. ago.

Tested my mod.29 at 100 yds. with NEI 240 SWC and 11,5 gr. of Vectan AO using a Burris 4X scope. This gun would routinely produce 3-5" groups. Eventually the forcing cone got burned up, and during the re-cut process at the S&W factory they cracked the frame when removing the barrel. It's still accurate, but not as before.

Got a 625 that'll make 3" groups at 50 yds. with 230 XTP's and 4,5 gr. of Titegroup too. How about your S&W's ! have you ever tested their true accuracy potential.

And have they lost any accuracy from being used over the years. Just being interested in your experience here.

Jess Christensen

[John Z Sr]

My 625 JM 4" does a jagged hole at 20 yards with 230 FMJ Zero's over 4.0 Clays, from a shootin' bag rest and old worn out eyes, would love to get it in a Ransom Rest someday

[Action Pistolero]

I have a Ron Power 686+ that will do 1.25" at 50 using a red dot. Bullet was a Zero 125 JHP using AA#2. My Production gun is a 686+ that will keep them in the x ring at 50 using iron sights. I figure it shoots as good as I can. I use a Zero 158 JHP with Unique. These guns are not very old so I don't know about longevity.

There are many variables when it comes to extreme accuracy from a handgun. Revolvers are a different story because of the fact that one chamber can be more accurate than another. The first thing to do is to test the difference between 38 Special and 357 mag cases. Logic would say that the magnum cases would be more accurate because they place the bullet closer to the forcing cone. Cases have to be all the same headstamp and the same length. Consistency is the key. I weigh my bullets to insure that they are within .2 grains of each other.

If I was looking for very good accuracy I would consider a custom barrel. Shilen or Douglas would be a good choice. It would seem to me that since the revolver relies on the forcing cone it would wear faster than anything else and would have to be set back every so often. Hell, I replace my barrels in my autos when they get to 60k rounds.

[GMM50]

Many years ago as I was starting to reload I took a stock used 586 with a 6" barrel and did an accuracy study.

Using Winchester brass and primers I found 231 to be best load using Carrol (out of business) 148gn wadcutters. (too much time on my hands)

As I found good loads and accuracy improved I added a 2x scope. I was shooting at 25 yards.

I could get a 5 shot group that touched.

The last step was to trim the cases to the same length and clean out the flash hole and primer pockets.

I ended up with one hole group. Not perfectly round as you could see the cutting of each shot. Call it 1/4" group size.

I never shot this at 50 yards. I also never touched gun (equalizing the throats).

So dumb luck was probably the guiding factor. But I bet you could get that (or close) from most revolvers.

Edited February 9, 2011 by GMM50

[Toolguy]

I have an 8-3/8 629 that will shoot 6" groups at 200 meters. It's stock except for the action job (I only shoot double action) and a Burris 2-7 power scope. The load is Starline .44 cases, CCI LPM primers, 18 gr. of H4227, 300 gr. Hornady XTP. My last Bianchi Open gun (686) would shoot 2" groups at 100 yards consistently. It had a 6" Douglas slab barrel, action job, 2 power Tasco scope. The load was Starline .357 brass, Federal SP primers, 10.5 gr. Blue Dot, 170 gr. SIerra

JHP. It would shoot Bianchi loads 1-1/2 to 2" at 50 yards. That load is Starline .38 spl brass, Federal SP primers, 5.2 of Bullseye and Zero 125 JHP. I haven't had time to test the current open gun.

[John Z Sr]

Nice Toolguy, sounds like a rifle !!! Thanks for sharing the loads

[50GI-Jess]

Very interesting Toolguy.

What was fps. on your loads ? power factor ? just in case you remember or has it written down still. What was the difference in inches at 100 yds, when sighted in at 200 with that 300 gr. HDY XTP load?

In your opinien, is the the Zero 125 JHP just as accurate as 125 XTP ?

[Forrest Halley]

I have an 8-3/8 629 that will shoot 6" groups at 200 meters. It's stock except for the action job (I only shoot double action) and a Burris 2-7 power scope. The load is Starline .44 cases, CCI LPM primers, 18 gr. of H4227, 300 gr. Hornady XTP. My last Bianchi Open gun (686) would shoot 2" groups at 100 yards consistently. It had a 6" Douglas slab barrel, action job, 2 power Tasco scope. The load was Starline .357 brass, Federal SP primers, 10.5 gr. Blue Dot, 170 gr. SIerra

JHP. It would shoot Bianchi loads 1-1/2 to 2" at 50 yards. That load is Starline .38 spl brass, Federal SP primers, 5.2 of Bullseye and Zero 125 JHP. I haven't had time to test the current open gun.

+1 to the XTP's I found out they were very accurate when playing with some .38 hunting loads. 4.6 Bullseye with a 125 gr XTP seated to crimp in the cannelure. I almost thought I had missed...twice in a three shot group.

[hopalong]

I have not really sat down and shot any of my USPSA guns for accuracy aside from standing group shooting at 25 yds iron sights. THE MOST accurate S&W I have is my rebarreled 646. It is a rechambered 686 barrel out to .40 S&W.

I have 2 625s a dash 2 & 3 they are just OK and shoot acceptable for USPSA but not ICORE.

I have 2 25-2s one 6 and another 6 1/2 they both shoot better than the 625s when I shoot Jacketed bullets through them. The 6 1/2 is the best shooter of my .45acp guns.

my 657(41 rem mag) is almost as good as the 646 and very capable of killing a deer at 150 yds (accuracy wise).

The 4 inch 610 I had was just as good as the 657.

Some kind of fun.

HOP

HOP

[Toolguy]

Very interesting Toolguy.

What was fps. on your loads ? power factor ? just in case you remember or has it written down still. What was the difference in inches at 100 yds, when sighted in at 200 with that 300 gr. HDY XTP load?

In your opinien, is the the Zero 125 JHP just as accurate as 125 XTP ?

The .44 load is 1050 fps. out of my gun. Subsonic all the way. The ballistic chart I looked at showed it being 900 fps at 200 meters. It has 54" of drop in 200 meters. The .357 mag. load was 1150 fps. The .38 spl. load is 1050 fps. The 125 JHP Zero bullets are as accurate as the 125 JHP XTP. The Zeros are the cheapest bullets that are really accurate. The XTP bullets in the heaviest weight for the caliber are the most accurate for long range in my guns. For example, 180 gr. XTP in .357, 300 gr. XTP in .44, etc. Generally, a hollow point bullet will shoot better groups at long range than a same weight soft or solid point. Most people don't shoot far enough to matter. At 25 yards there isn't much difference between all of the good quality bullets, even lead. As long as they don't lead the barrel or keyhole, about anything works for 25 yards or less.

[longbarrel]

Hey Jess,

My usual Bianchi load shoots Zero 125 JHP's at 1025 to 1050 fps into 2 inches at 50 yds.

I dont experiment around with velocities. I have a target velocity for action pistol shooting as you know.

Nearly all the powders shoot the same groups in my gun with the given bullet at that velocity.

The last load was solo 1000. My gun has over 25000 on it.

Troy

[50GI-Jess]

Hi again,

When it comes to 125 gr. JHP's, it's kind of strange that very few use Sierra's Sportsmaster bullets. They should be top notch grade too ! Does anyone treat their bullets with molly coating ? and whats the difference in accuracy/velocity ?

Another thing I heard about accuracy in S&W revolvers, is that if it starts out with app. 1 to 1,5" groups at 50 yds. It'll open up to about 2-3" after 40 to 60.000 rds. however, it's going to be like this for...well almost ever.

Lead bullets will never wear out it's accuracy at all...or it's in the 100's of thousands etc. or so I was told by a PPC shooter in the past.

Does anyone have experience with this ?

Jess.

PS. see you soon Troy.

[Toolguy]

It's been my experience that Sierra, Nosler and Hornady are all top grade bullets. Sierra is very expensive. Probably why few people use them. Hornady has gotten more expensive too. Nosler has 250 bulk pack bullets in a few weights and calibers that aren't as much as some of the others. In my .44 the Nosler 300 gr. hollow point would shoot as good as the Hornady XTP 300 gr., but the Nosler 300 gr. flat point would not. I've shot PPC from 1980 till now. You can wear out a barrel with powder puff lead loads but it takes over 100,000 rounds usually. Most PPC people will wear out a barrel cleaning it before they wear it out shooting it. One of the guys I shoot with kept track and he wore out a barrel in 70,000 rounds using jacketed bullets. That's still a lot of shooting. He had it rebarreled and has shot many thousands more through the same gun with the 2nd barrel. There is no magic number of rounds when a barrel is done. There are too many variables. If the gun starts shooting bigger groups with quality ammo, it may need a new barrel.

Edited February 10, 2011 by Toolguy

[50GI-Jess]

Interesting,

Also I was wondering if moly spray will help anything at handgun velocities. Has anyone tried that ? Or has it been proven in test labs? About Federal SP. I can't see any difference in either accuracy or FPS, when using faster burning pistol powder in 38 spl.

Jess

[Griz]

My Action Pistol Open gun is a 686+ with a barrel from Clark, it will do under 1" at 50 yards off of a benchrest. I can keep it in the X-ring from the prone position as long as I remember to put the dot on the X-ring before I pull the trigger.

When this gun was new, it was shooting 6" groups at 50 yards. It turned out to have an over-torqued barrel that resulted in a constriction where the barrel was threaded into the frame. I could feel this constriction when running a rod through the bore.

My Metallic gun is an old 8-3/8" 686 that a swapped a 7 shot cylinder onto. It is capable of keeping them in the X-ring at 50 yards when I'm not on the clock. I don't know how well it would do with a scope.

[Action Pistolero]

Interesting,

Also I was wondering if moly spray will help anything at handgun velocities. Has anyone tried that ? Or has it been proven in test labs? About Federal SP. I can't see any difference in either accuracy or FPS, when using faster burning pistol powder in 38 spl.

Jess

I use moly coated bullets in my auto A/P guns. I have to increase the powder charge 0.1 grains to get the same velocity as a non moly bullet. The main reason that I use moly bullets is to reduce fouling and increase my barrel life. I coat my own bullets. They also leave a nice silver ring around the bullet hole on the target. Sometimes it means the difference between an 8 and a 10.

Federal SP primers are used because of their cup softness so they are easier to ignite with a lightened trigger pull. You can also install an extended firing pin or if you use a 1050 you can seat the primer deep enough to see the anvil. For serious target work I'll use the Fed SP match primer.

[BallisticianX]

I haven't shot my Custom 686 beyond 25 yards. It generally shoots 5 shots into 1" using most lead cast or plated bullets with all the powders Ive tried. Currently I'm using a Berry's plated 158 gr. over 4 gr. of Bullseye. I'm yet to load any jacketed bullets for it yet.

My Ruger Super Blackhawk in .44 mag is a gun Ive shot at extended ranges. I have a Burris 2x scope with a 7.5" barrel. It's favorite load is a 240gr XTP HP over 24 gr. of Hodgden Lil' Gun. It will consistently shoot 5 shots into .875"-1" at 50 yards. It will do 1.75"-2" at a 100 yards. The gun is all stock other than the drilling and tapping for the scope and Hogue grips.

[50GI-Jess]

when using 24 gr. of Lil-Gun, it must be a very compressed load. Doesn't the 240 gr. XTP migrate back out some after seating ? I have a Ruger Super Blackhawk too, but not as accurate as your. Someone told me, that Ruger revolver is not build with the same consistency and accuracy as S&W's, and only one out of 3 is considered a real tack driver. Does that statement have any bearing to it at all...anybody knows!

By the way, who has Zero 125 JHP's in stock. Seems to be sold out everywhere.

Jess Christensen