tightloop Posted September 20, 2002 Share Posted September 20, 2002 How about a Pro class for guys who are sponsored and a Grand Master class for those who are not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
miyamoto Posted September 20, 2002 Share Posted September 20, 2002 what about the people who are semi-pro's? ;-) i agree with bill. certain gear is needed, but most of all consistent, detailed training. a dillon 650 does not hurt either. :-) also in agreement. top of the list is discipline. not only for training, but making it count. turning money into noise... have a good one, will s. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tightloop Posted September 20, 2002 Share Posted September 20, 2002 What is a semi pro? You are either a pro or not, kind of like being pregnant. If someone gives you 500 bullets, or a brick of primers does that make you a pro, I think so, especially if they give you more when you use those up. You either front all your expenses or you don't. Kind of like asking Ken Lay at Enron if he knew about what was going on there; "...I have no direct knowledge..." just does not cut it with me. It might be posssible to avoid the Pro label for a long time, but if asked about it, you need to fess up. I think the main things needed to get to the point where you can shoot 60+ sec classifier are: 1. close range avaliable anytime you need it, 2 or 3 times per week with little or no interruption. 2.Focus and determination. 3. Talent 4. Enough spendable income to pursue your dream. I go back to my last post, those are Smoking Times and good luck at the Nationals. You did not say what pistol category you shoot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jake Di Vita Posted September 20, 2002 Share Posted September 20, 2002 tightloop, My Dad pays for a lot of my shooting expenses considering I just couldn't afford it. Does that make me a pro? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
miyamoto Posted September 20, 2002 Share Posted September 20, 2002 tightloop, i would almost agree with you. i do now have a couple of sponsors...but i am still at my computer 9-5 mon-fri. that is the only way i pay the bullet bill. ;-) i always imagined a "pro" being fully sponsored and bankrolled. i think if the shooting pros we all know, rob leatham, jarrett, etc. it is hard for me to imagine michael jordan having to buy his own basketballs and rent court time. for sure, shooting does not take care of its top folks the way these other american sports coddle to these sports "heroes". but that is the way it is. i will be shooting master esp for the idpa nationals. right at 125 1/2 power factor...kidding. stallion, i actually never had supportive parents...not at all. very anti-gun parents. i had to join the military to first be introduced to firearms (hands-on). competition only started two years ago. i wish i could have started 10 years earlier at your age. that is great what you have there. very fortunate. just keep it up. good shooting, will (Edited by miyamoto at 8:44 am on Sep. 20, 2002) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jake Di Vita Posted September 20, 2002 Share Posted September 20, 2002 Thank you, I know how fortunate I am, it's been really great to be supported in this sport for the past year and a half. What squad will you be shooting at in the Nats? I believe I'm in squad 18 shooting SSP MA. (Edited by TheItlianStalion at 9:28 am on Sep. 20, 2002) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tightloop Posted September 20, 2002 Share Posted September 20, 2002 Stalion How old are you? If you are over 21, then that makes you an unnecessary drain on your fathers generosity and finances, if you are not yet 21, it makes you one of the privileged few and damn lucky on top of that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jake Di Vita Posted September 20, 2002 Share Posted September 20, 2002 I'm 17. I was just merely making the point, that even if you don't pay for everything, you're not automatically considered a "pro." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tightloop Posted September 20, 2002 Share Posted September 20, 2002 Stalion There are plenty of under 21 yr old pros in various sports. Socioeconomic issues aside, I would not consider yu pro unless you received help from outside your immediate family. Like I said, you are very lucky; some of us have parents with the ability to provide us with a string of polo ponies while others of us do not. It is a parents joy and privilege to give you what they can while yu live with them, I did the same for my children, but after they graduated from college and moved out of my house, it was all on them. When that happens the young person can suddenly find themselves wondering how they are going to afford the ticket into the polo match, much less the cost of the string of polo ponies. So enjoy it now, and good luck at the Nat'ls. Not trying to preach to you, just trying to be sure you know how fortunate you are. If David Sevigny should break his leg getting out of the car, and you should happen to become National SSP Master Champ, please say a few good words for your dad when you take the podium to accept your trophy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
miyamoto Posted September 20, 2002 Share Posted September 20, 2002 stalion, we will be on squad five. i will be the goofy looking one with the blond haired, blue eyed cute girl. she is shooting master ssp like you. we might both be using a video camera. we will be documenting it as well as using the tape for training puposes. we will be representing "team gunsite", (no i don't shoot weaver) as a sponsor for the match as well. just look for our vests with "team gunsite" displayed and by all means introduce yourself. that would be great. good luck and hopefully see you there, will Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jake Di Vita Posted September 20, 2002 Share Posted September 20, 2002 Miyamoto, I'll be sure to do that, my name is Jake Di Vita. I'll most likely be wearing a plain white shirt with Khakis and an LTT hat shooting a Beretta EII. Tightloop, Believe me, I express my gratitude to my Father everyday for what he does for me, you really don't have to tell me to tell him I appreciate it. BTW, even if Sevigney does break his leg, he'll probably still beat me. He's the man when it comes to SSP. (Edited by TheItlianStalion at 11:29 am on Sep. 20, 2002) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted April 15, 2008 Share Posted April 15, 2008 There are lot of people shooting the classifier in the 60's and 70's. That is a long way from 98 in SSP. Maybe we do need a Grand Master class. I thought I'd bring this old topic back to the top, as it give some insight into a current topic. (ain't much new...is there?) To me, there is clearly another level of shooting that is beyond 98 seconds or so in SSP. I know that I beat that with some VERY sloppy shooting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boo radley Posted April 15, 2008 Share Posted April 15, 2008 I thought I'd bring this old topic back to the top, as it give some insight into a current topic. (ain't much new...is there?)To me, there is clearly another level of shooting that is beyond 98 seconds or so in SSP. I know that I beat that with some VERY sloppy shooting. That may well be. But apparently nothing has changed in at least 6+ years to warrant IDPA's revising the thresholds. I guess they were perfect then, and thus perfect now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bones Posted April 15, 2008 Share Posted April 15, 2008 Correct - there is nothing new - I noted this was cyclical very early on in the recent conversation - and it has nothing to do with perfection. There was and always will be a dynamic absolute order. No classification system will change that. The only control you can exert is to effect your momentary position in the order. Make the choice to play or don't. Make the choice to improve or don't. Either way, it will change. Craig Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
freeidaho Posted April 15, 2008 Share Posted April 15, 2008 If anyone wants to see it done in the 60's, there is Matt Burkett's dvd "Practical Shooting" "Winning IDPA Techniques" volume 5. kr Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chills1994 Posted April 15, 2008 Share Posted April 15, 2008 Flexmoney wrote: I thought I'd bring this old topic back to the top, as it give some insight into a current topic. (ain't much new...is there?) (thread drift on) Have you seen the videos from the 1991 Colt Shootout match here: http://web.mac.com/speedoption/Capsl/Movie_91_CPS.html Open guns? Check! C-mores? Check! Remie 1100's? Check! Speed loaders for shotguns? Check! Matt Burkett? Check! Rob Leatham? Check! Jo Jo Vidanes? Check! Hat cam? Check! Nope! It seems like nothing much as changed in 17 years, either. Necro-poster! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boo radley Posted April 15, 2008 Share Posted April 15, 2008 Correct - there is nothing new - I noted this was cyclical very early on in the recent conversation - and it has nothing to do with perfection. There was and always will be a dynamic absolute order. No classification system will change that. The only control you can exert is to effect your momentary position in the order. Make the choice to play or don't. Make the choice to improve or don't. Either way, it will change. Craig I agree with all your points. But it would be disingenuous to explain IDPA's immutable classification system as stemming from a deep understanding of "dynamic absolute order." I shouldn't have been sarcastic in my use of the word "perfect," but the point remains -- it's not logically defensible to create a system with meaningful labels, then ignore subsequent data that might argue for revision....I suspect it's simply a business decision: the return on revising the system simply isn't worth the work and expense. <shrug> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mayonaise Posted April 15, 2008 Share Posted April 15, 2008 If anyone wants to see it done in the 60's, there is Matt Burkett's dvd "Practical Shooting" "Winning IDPA Techniques" volume 5.kr If I remember correctly he also would have gotten at least on procedural in that run. Starting from Surrender somewhere in stage one. Something else too but my memory fails me. Regardless, it's an impressive run. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bones Posted April 15, 2008 Share Posted April 15, 2008 Agreed. Is segregating out a couple dozen people from 8.5% of the population -who probably didn't wake up one morning magically endowed with superior skills - really worth it? Can you imagine the effort and great gnashing of teeth that would be required to define "Pro" "Semi-Pro" "Sponsored" or whatever segregator would be applied? My answer to the first question is "no". Here's why: If you segregate MA at it's current population size, no matter what the classification cut-offs are, there will be a bottom and top of each. The IDPA awards system recognizes the top third in each classification. The top third will still be the top third, the bottom two-thirds will still be the bottom two thirds and the Division Champion will still be the Division Champion. The same people will be getting awards no matter what the classifications are. Nothing will change except the type setting and printing costs. For those that compete for reasons other than expanding a plywood collection, it doesn't matter anyway. In the end, it compicates life and increases cost without adding value. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chills1994 Posted April 15, 2008 Share Posted April 15, 2008 Good post ^^^ there Craig! Hmmn... maybe somebody... somewhere could put on an IDPA match called the "Masters". Like all other major IDPA matches the prizes (guns, chronographs, flashlights, etc) would still be handed out at random, but a'yup, ya guessed it... It would only be open to master classed shooters . The trick would be to get the prize table big and lucrative enough that it would draw a large pool of Master classed shooters... Hmmmmn..... The other trick would be getting SO's and staff for it. I guess the MD or whoever could let lesser classed people SO it and they would be allowed to shoot it... Hmmmn.... just an idea that popped into my head. The division champion guys, I think, would still be the division champion guys, just like Craig (aka Bones) said up above, though... so having a Master's IDPA match really doesn't solve anything there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ditto_95 Posted April 15, 2008 Share Posted April 15, 2008 I betting "Master" was figured based on what Bill Wilson shot. What ya wanna bet? I am not sure that Bill is the one to follow. Seems there are people that shot better than him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HuskySig Posted April 15, 2008 Share Posted April 15, 2008 (edited) Hmmn... maybe somebody... somewhere could put on an IDPA match called the "Masters". Like all other major IDPA matches the prizes (guns, chronographs, flashlights, etc) would still be handed out at random, but a'yup, ya guessed it... It would only be open to master classed shooters. It already happened earlier this year. S&W Laser and Light Invitational mattk Edited April 15, 2008 by HuskySig Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Nesbitt Posted April 15, 2008 Share Posted April 15, 2008 I betting "Master" was figured based on what Bill Wilson shot. What ya wanna bet? I am not sure that Bill is the one to follow. Seems there are people that shot better than him. The way I remember it, folks like Robbie Leatham and Jerry Barnhart were asked to shoot the classifier and that's where the times came from. Remember this was 1996 and nobody thought people would be able to run SSP guns like we do now. Nobody was shooting double action guns in competition. Production didn't come along until a few years later. I can't believe Flex stirring things up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted April 16, 2008 Share Posted April 16, 2008 Well...I didn't mean to stir things up any more. I was hoping to point out that we've covered this stuff before and there was some info on how the standard was set (which was lacking from the other thread). I found this thread while doing a search for something else today. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe D Posted April 16, 2008 Share Posted April 16, 2008 Interesting topic. This may sound a little odd, but I have never moved up by shooting the Classifier. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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