Mag Question

[JFD]

I shot an IDPA match yesterday after a long absence.

I have 5 Colt 9 round mags with Wilson "guts", making them 10 round mags.  I also have 5 Wilson 10 round mags.  I generally don't load mags after a stage, just switching to full mags since I have enough to cover all or most of our local match needs.

The problem is that the Wilson mags are ungodly hard to seat with 10 rounds in them, and the Colt mags are only a little better.

What I did was loaded 9 rounds.  Also of course got the benefit of slide lock reloads as well as easy mag insertion.

Did I break a rule with this method?

I wasn't worried about the legality of it at the match after seeing 6 procedurals not called before I ever shot the first stage.  This continued all day, to include counting misses on the edge as hits and ignored procedurals for some people while others were busted.  A fellow USPSA shooter got away with a speed load (empty mag/loaded chamber) on the move between cover.  

I could always replace the guts in my Colt mags to return them to 9 rounds, then use them in the first stage.  That way I'd have to load the Wilson mags down to 9 rounds for any stages where I might use them.  Sounds a little fishy though...

[tightloop]

I guess you are shooting ESP, probably with  a 38 Super.  If that is the fact, you have to load 9+1.  If you are shooting CDP, you have to load 8+1 to start, but there is no rule that says you cannot interchange mags once the stage begins, and go to a 7 round mag in CDP.

You did not say where you shoot, but if the SO's were that lax about calling penalties, such as loading on the move, slide down on a live round loads, etc they better wise up, cause you cannot get away with that at the big shoots, Regional or Nationals.  I believe in using every advantage I can get, but you cannot win if you get the FTDR and that is why I go; to win.

[JFD]

I was shooting ESP with my .38 Super.

I'm under the impression(perhaps wrongly) that if I start with 9+1, then all stages are be shot with 9+1 even if I might feel the need for that extra round in another stage.

However my mags are actually 10+1 mags.  

I guess it's no different than loading 7+1 in CDP with a 8+1 mag.  Something just doesn't seem right about it, and being able to switch to a lower capacity mag at the reload sounds definitely not right.  Of course if it's not against the rules, then it really doesn't matter how it seems to me.

We also had at least one guy only load 6 rounds in his 1911 for a 6 round string.  I'm thinking this might just be another ignored procedural because I believe guns are supposed to be "fully loaded".  

I wasn't too interested in scores anyway and felt my rules knowledge was too lame to get up on a soapbox.

I guess this is mainly a curosity question anyway since the only reason I shot the match was because it was at my club and it gave me more trigger time.  I have no urge to return to this group and will stick to USPSA (I'm better with those rules) in the future.

[tightloop]

I just went thru this with the Regional coordinator and his minions.  they are getting their panties all in a wad about interchanging mags on a stage, when the rules say nothing about it.  If they caught you changing the spring and guts of mags to alter the capacity of it, where I shoot it would be the FTDR and 20 seconds.  I handled it be now shooting ESP and leave the CDP pistol at home.  Now I shoot 1911 in 9mm and can go 9+1 almost like the SSP guys.

[Steve Moneypenny]

it is the opinion of my self, and most of the top shooters which i have talked with that there is a distinct advantage to only loading 10 rounds max in the gun.

Howeverif your gun has the capablity, it can cause problems, you could accidentally load the extra round. and the whole plethora of shooters that are mad if they get beat, see better gear, etc.

i was ordered by a SO to top off or get a FTDR i was using wilson mags that i had quite a few rounds through ( 38 super) and they NEVER fed the top round if you put 11 in the gun, you could barely seat them. so i had a planned jam, it jammed, which is cleared by slapping the back of the slide with my hand. when i finished the COF i showed my hand to the SO, and told him if he didn't like losing to me, go home and practice, that way i wouldn't have to go home and bandage a hand.

i would convert the colts back to 9 round mags, top off the lame way ( tac reload style) declare 9 round mags, and reload with the wilsons if you want, but be prepared to put up with BS... i would just use the wilsons for practice mags and leave it at that. JMO.

[DogmaDog]

You are only required to load to maximum capacity and top off on stages that will require a reload.  

You may not switch between magazines of different capacities during a match, in order to gain competetive advantage...in CDP you basically choose before the match whether you will use 8 round or 7 round magazines, and then you stick with them.

If your magazines are nominally 9 round mags, but you can cram a 10th round in, I'd say it's OK to load 9+1, but you have to load that way every time!  

Semper Fi,

DogmaDog

[Steve Moneypenny]

i have problems with it when they argue "tactical" because, i "tactically load my beretta to 16 rounds every day" and i Tactically load a max of 10 when i carry my 38 super, because gosh golly gee, it don't work with 11 in it. so i won't stuff that extra round to cause a known malfunction.

in my opinion, i would like a single stack SSP gun to hold 9+1 that way them ESP guys don't get the advantage :-)

[tightloop]

Smoney

I know that they try to force you to choose between 7 or 8 round mags at the start of the match if you shoot CDP.  However, the only rule concerning mag capacity says that in a string with a reload the mag you start with has to be topped off to the max number of rounds allowed by that division.  CDP that is 8.  there is nothing at all about not allowing you to interchange 7 or 8 round mags during the course of fire in any string during a match, and nothing that says you have to start with an 8 round mag if the stage doesn't call for a reload.

I am with you, if you have hi cap mags, you should be allowed to use them.  If you as a CDP shooter want to mix and interchange mags, you should be allowed to.  I made the SO's and the MD so mad with this they started to get punitive with me, so I now shoot ESP 9+1.  

They really need to get over this fixation with whatever IPSC says we are going to do the opposite.  I don't know why Wilson and all his cronies hate Jeff Cooper but that fact is the cause of all the IPSC vs IDPA problems.

[vincent]

In every major match I have gone to, you have to state your magazine capacity and stick to that for the entire match.  The maximum magazine capacity is designated by the division rules, you can state less than maximum if you want.  You cannot vary the magazine capacity during a stage or during the match unless the course of fire specifically requires it.   (For example you can't state 8+1 and then only load 7+1 because it would be better for that stage - just like you can't load 3+1 because it would be better for the stage).  Failure to follow this rule is usually a Failure To Do Right.  I know plenty of people who run in CDP with 7+1 and ESP with 9+1.  They just use this capacity all the time and it is OK.

With the auto divisions, you have to start with your stated magazine capacity plus one in the chamber on any Vickers count string that requires a reload.  You have to use magazines loaded to your stated magazine capacity on all strings of fire in which a specific number of rounds is not specified.  Failure to follow these rules is usually a Procedural.

[tightloop]

Been there , done that, but show me where in the rules it says you cannot interchange mags when shooting CDP, during a single stage.  I don't want to switch on my Range Lawyer  button, but if it ain't in the rule book...

How about the IDPA Rules moderator chiming in on this.

3+1 isn't a full mag, but 7+1 is... big difference  

While we are at it, show me in the rule book where it says you have to declare which capacity mags you are using before yu shoot.  The rules state that the pistol has to be loaded to capacity per the division .  To me that means you cannot start with a 7+1.

(Edited by tightloop at 11:32 am on Aug. 13, 2002)

(Edited by tightloop at 11:35 am on Aug. 13, 2002)

[JFD]

Thanks for the rules lesson guys.

If I shoot IDPA again I'll just load 9+1 and get on with it.

There's a definite advantage to 9+1 over 10+1.  Guys with 11 rounds could not shoot nearly as smoothly as I could with 10 rounds.  Now if I was to need to make up a shot, then I might be wishing I had loaded 10 rounds in the mag.  There's a downside to everything, but IMHO the percentages favor the guy with 9+1.

I might go ahead and change followers in my Colt mags to reduce the max capacity to 9 rounds.  This would shut up anybody with a problem, and it will be easy to stop at 9 rounds with my Wilson mags.  These things take major effort to load tha 10th round.  About the same time they get easy to fully load and seat, the springs are worn out a month later.  Oddly enough, the colt mags can be loaded to 10 rounds with little extra effort and seat much easier.

[Steve Moneypenny]

i think wilson screwed up on the super mags personally. for a long time i couldn't get 10 in mine. i sold them, now have 8 metal form mags, flawless performance. none of those annoying problems.

11 rounds is challenging some times, i have dumped rounds before to reload before a stupid place where 1 shot would put the gun to slide lock. and other times, when you miss, and make it up the SO tries to nail you for it.

you made a good choice.

[Mark Perez]

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Quote: from tightloop on 10:30 am on Aug. 13, 2002

Been there , done that, but show me where in the rules it says you cannot interchange mags when shooting CDP, during a single stage.  I don't want to switch on my Range Lawyer  button, but if it ain't in the rule book...

How about the IDPA Rules moderator chiming in on this.

3+1 isn't a full mag, but 7+1 is... big difference  

While we are at it, show me in the rule book where it says you have to declare which capacity mags you are using before yu shoot.  The rules state that the pistol has to be loaded to capacity per the division .  To me that means you cannot start with a 7+1.

(Edited by tightloop at 11:32 am on Aug. 13, 2002)

(Edited by tightloop at 11:35 am on Aug. 13, 2002)

---

All- I'm not an area coordinator but read TGO's response from here

http://www.brianenos.com/cgi-bin/ikonboard...=7&topic=55

I think he answers these questions quite clearly.

(Edited by Mark Perez at 2:17 pm on Aug. 13, 2002)

[bman]

There is no rule that states you must declare the type of mag you are using in CDP (7 of 8 rounds) I have 10 round Wilson’s for my Kimber but I only load them to eight just because of farness to the people using 8 round stock mags but I also use my 8 round mags as needed in a match. The rules do not say you can't swap between them at anytime. Seem to me the people running some of these matches are making up rules as they go.

[Mark Perez]

Competiion rules 2 and 3.

2.                  Any attempt to circumvent or compromise the spirit or rationale of any stage either by the use of inappropriate devices, equipment, or technique, will incur a twenty (20) second penalty (Vickers Count Stage) or a two hundred (200) point penalty (PAR Time Stage); this is the "FAILURE TO DO RIGHT RULE".

 

3.         Unsportsmanlike conduct, unfair actions, or the use of illegal equipment which, in the opinion of the match director, tends to make a travesty of the defensive shooting sport shall result in disqualification from the stage or the entire match at the discretion of the match director.

Doing it to gain an advantage over your fellow competitors who have all their magazines at full capacity? Why even bother shooting IDPA ?

Go back and read the Purpose and principles section of the book.

[bman]

It still does not say that you can’t use mags of different capacity during a match. If you have a 10 round mag and two 7 round mags there is no rule to say you cannot use all three. All you have said you cannot use illegal equipment to gain an unfair advantage. Where does it say that using a 7 round mag and two 8 round mags is against the rules.    

[Mark Perez]

10 round mags won't "fit in the box"- at least the last time I checked. ..we are talking cdp right ?

If that isn't the case ,as in regards to ESP - if all magazine capacity's are consistent for each stage,ther shouldn't be an issue.

What I was getting at in the previous post - loading your magazines to "game" [there''s that word again] the stage design I think would fall under 2 and 3 above.

following disclaimer;

That is just my opinion and holds no official weight or bearing on how other clubs run or manage their local events.

[tightloop]

Well, I understand everyone's point.  

It should be noted that the FTDR is the catch all to give the SO's / or the MD the authority to penalize the shooter for EVERYTHING/or ANYTHING not covered in the IDPA rule book.  Somewhere in his youth, Bill Wilson must have been out gamed on some stage or match and when he got IDPA rolling, decided that being out gamed would never be an issue again.  Subsequently, the FTDR.

[the duck of death]

Keep it up boys, you'll have IDPA as screwed up as USPSA.

[jmc9x23]

Each Division has a limit not a minimum. True the Wilson super mags can hold 10, but I've had more malfunctions with 10 in the mag. They are a real b**ch to seat. Once you get them seated they put to much pressure on the slide and short cycle. I run 9 in the mag and 1 in the pipe and avoid all the problems.

There are the CDP 7 vs. 8 round arguements, but truth be told both are made and standard on different guns. What about the shooter who has a few 7 rounders and can't afford to replace them with all 8 rounders, so they just buy a few. I guess he'll get confused at some point. Then there is the gamers who arbitrarily switch between the 7 and 8 rounders to their advantage. Kinda kin to dumping rounds. Very hard to prove and penilize with Vickers scoring.

Most senerios are now letting you pick the reload and having a minimum of 12 rounds so everyone has to reload. To me the advantage is having an even number of rounds in the gun since most targets are engaged with a multiple of 2 rounds each.

!0 round 45 mags are not legal since they won't fit in the Box when they are in the gun.

[Larrys1911]

There is no specific rule against it!

THere is the competitive advantage thing!

I can tell you as an SO I know your trying to get the competitive advantage by doing it, IF I catch you or any of the rest do at the Nats it will not be worth the small benifit you get.  I PROMISE!

We were told to look for it on my stage last year because it would have made a difference so we did! and we made everyone write it down and then we counted your rounds

Its EASY guys, they tell you up front, don't do it! so DON'T

no arguement, no confusion NO PROBLEM

that said IF you have 10 rounders and want to load 9 the whole time - go for it! or 7 in CDP

BUT you cant interchange them, in the rules or not, THATS the way it is!

BTW if you read the rule book closely it also says (or used to) that the MD had the final word on everything at "their" match!  See if it aint there, it really dosent matter!  As long as you know up front - I dont see the problem!

Quit yer bitchin and just shoot!

Larry P

(Edited by Larrys1911 at 2:06 am on Aug. 16, 2002)

[Mark Perez]

In the abscence of any rule condemning an action , some shooters are operating under an assumption that it is 'legal' to operate outside of the rule book.This is wrong and sets an unfriendly atmosphere to what should be an enjoyable event.

There are only 27 competition rules in IDPA for a reason-there isn't any conceivable way that the rule book authors can come up with a rule or standing to counter every 'gaming' factor. Hence rules 2 and 3. At least this is my understanding.

Once again IDPA is not USPSA/IPSC .Different rules for a different game. Like I have previously mentioned in this forum before - you wouldn't want to play baseball with football rules would you?

As Larry already mentioned - just load it and shoot.

[ErikW]

Riiiiight... so if you're shooting a Glock 27 9+1, you have to reload with a stubby 9 rounder. Even though in real life you carry a spare full-size G23 or G22 mag, the Tactical thing to do is to struggle with another stubby 9 rounder. Even though there's no rule, negating a perceived competitive advantage is more important than doing what really you do with your carry gun.

[John Thompson]

Hey!  Bill Wilson didn't come out with seven round mags called the "Competitor" for nothing!

[Mark Perez]

let's not confuse the real world with idpa or any of the other sports.

We have some shooters who shoot the 26/27 and some 30's -never hear any complaints .Some of them have that pearce grip base plate on the magazines.

I think uspsa production restricts magazine use - in idpa you could use the larger sized mag [ for instance a 23 mag to reload to a 27 ] -still fits box standard and capacities are kept the same.