Having trouble breaking a habit of death gripping my gun... help?

[DonovanM]

Hey guys,

Whenever I dry fire a target array, and transition at speed with targets that are close together, I always find my strong hand death gripping my pistol. My weak hand grip stays the same at around 50-60% or less. I have been aware of this in matches as well.

It probably doesn't help that I'm working with a stock 10lb DA trigger and 4lb SA, but cultivating good follow through/trigger control SEEMS more a product of patience and the use of my sights than grip tension. At least from what I've seen and how I've performed so far.

Is there anything I can do besides be insistent during practice to relax my strong hand a bit? Or should I just run with it. I've shot 8-9 matches and a couple B classifiers - but am classified as a C (due to a lack of patience and misuse of my sights on more than one occasion ).

[Flexmoney]

I suspect you are trying to control the recoil. With your current grip and stance, the way you picture doing that is with your strong hand.

Read Matt Burkett's tips on grip and stance. And, try the timing drills that he has. (seek and ye shall find)

[G-ManBart]

Percentages and tension levels are relative. What you feel is 50-60% may be my 100% or vice-versa. The real issue is whether you think it's causing a problem, know it's causing a problem (specific), or just think "that's not right". Any of those apply?

The reality is that if it's not hurting how your trigger finger is working, and you're not seeing obvious (bad) hit patterns that coincide with how you're calling shots, it may not be causing any problems at all...not super likely, but you never know. R,

[Matt Griffin]

Put your mind on your trigger. Concentrate on the texture of the trigger face throughout the whole pull. Feel the edges of the trigger, notice how they slightly change as the trigger comes back. Once you have this much attention on something other than the recoil, you'll find that you stop overgripping, and start hitting the target. Eyes on the sights, mind on the trigger.

H.

[38supPat]

This can be from trying to shoot fast, by causing tension in the trigger finger while attempting to move it fast resulting in extra overall hand tension. Normally we are cautioned about over gripping the gun causing excess tension in the trigger finger and poor shooting, the opposite can also be true. The attempt to "try" to manipulate the trigger fast can also lead to excess tension in the shooting hand.

[benos]

Donavan,

In the match, experiment with the amount of gripping force you apply. Assign 100% to your death grip. Then tell yourself that you are going to shoot this stage with only 80% of your normal grip pressure, and note how the sights track and return, and how the gun felt and handled overall.

Also experiment with other gripping pressures, like 70 or 90 percent.

And for me it always worked best to remember and recall the total gripping pressure of both hands as one feeling.

be

[DonovanM]

Thanks everyone for your replies. I've put some rounds downrange and done alot of dry firing keeping what you told me in mind.

I suspect you are trying to control the recoil. With your current grip and stance, the way you picture doing that is with your strong hand.

Read Matt Burkett's tips on grip and stance. And, try the timing drills that he has. (seek and ye shall find)

I'll take a look for them, thanks. Yeah I think part of it is absolutely trying to control the recoil - and shoot faster, and only with one hand at that.

Percentages and tension levels are relative. What you feel is 50-60% may be my 100% or vice-versa. The real issue is whether you think it's causing a problem, know it's causing a problem (specific), or just think "that's not right". Any of those apply?

The reality is that if it's not hurting how your trigger finger is working, and you're not seeing obvious (bad) hit patterns that coincide with how you're calling shots, it may not be causing any problems at all...not super likely, but you never know. R,

Definitely. It doesn't feel right - like I'm out of balance. I also think it reduces my ability to finely control the trigger, and I've had a couple instances of trigger freeze I can recall.

The rest of my shooting skills aren't yet refined enough for me to really differentiate the causes of my bad hit patterns, but I'm confident that inconsistent grip pressure is among my biggest areas of improvement. I have alot of stuff to work on

Put your mind on your trigger. Concentrate on the texture of the trigger face throughout the whole pull. Feel the edges of the trigger, notice how they slightly change as the trigger comes back. Once you have this much attention on something other than the recoil, you'll find that you stop overgripping, and start hitting the target. Eyes on the sights, mind on the trigger.

H.

Sounds like a great mental exercise. I tried it while dry firing and let transitions and sight alignments all go the way of the subconcious - and it became even more pronounced when I was overgripping. I've been insistent with backing it off and things seem to be coming together a bit nicer.

This can be from trying to shoot fast, by causing tension in the trigger finger while attempting to move it fast resulting in extra overall hand tension. Normally we are cautioned about over gripping the gun causing excess tension in the trigger finger and poor shooting, the opposite can also be true. The attempt to "try" to manipulate the trigger fast can also lead to excess tension in the shooting hand.

Definitely. It feels like I'm beating the trigger with a club as opposed to operating it like a rower does his oar - smoothly (but quickly).

Donavan,

In the match, experiment with the amount of gripping force you apply. Assign 100% to your death grip. Then tell yourself that you are going to shoot this stage with only 80% of your normal grip pressure, and note how the sights track and return, and how the gun felt and handled overall.

Also experiment with other gripping pressures, like 70 or 90 percent.

And for me it always worked best to remember and recall the total gripping pressure of both hands as one feeling.

be

Awesome. I'll try this out. Both hands as one feeling... I can dig it.

Thanks again!

[rsrocket1]

Great thread!

I got back into shooting after a 20 year hiatus (marriage, kids) and pulled out the old Thompson Auto Ordnance 1911. I read that it is a "junk gun" and after shooting it, thought "maybe it's true". I'm a pretty good rifle shot and was a 21-22 skeet shooter, but never cared too much for pistol shooting.

When coming back to the 1911, I noticed all my shots were consistently 6" low at 17 yards. It was so bad that I figured the gun was misaligned and made a rear sight extension out of cardboard and it brought the groups back to the center of the target. Is the gun REALLY that bad? After a few hundred rounds of shooting it that way, I bench rested the gun on sandbags and guess what? 14/14 shots in the 10 ring at 17 yards using the factory sights with no modifications! The gun really isn't that bad, I was. At least I was consistently bad.

I then read some articles on using a "death grip" to eliminate the lower 3 fingers from yanking the barrel down on the trigger pull and the technique worked. My problem is that while it shows that the problem was in the shooting technique and not the gun (whew), after 100 shots using the death grip, my hands were shaking while I was aiming and my forearms were fatigued later that day. The results were better than before, but there must be a better way.

[benos]

Just a nice firm grip is all that's necessary.

[Genghis]

When I started competing, there were times when I blew reloads because my mags wouldn't drop free. They would drop free with no problems when the timer wasn't running. Someone pointed out that the cause was my deathtrap on the gun - I was squeezing the grip hard enough to hold the mags in place.

[benos]

When I started competing, there were times when I blew reloads because my mags wouldn't drop free. They would drop free with no problems when the timer wasn't running. Someone pointed out that the cause was my deathtrap on the gun - I was squeezing the grip hard enough to hold the mags in place.

Yes, I knew a few folks that suffered from that. And from the size of your arms in your avatar - it looks like you have plenty of crushing power to spare.

[Cy Soto]

Just a nice firm grip is all that's necessary.

Forgive me if I am going on off-track here but I need to ask...

Does this also apply to the support hand or should I squeeze as hard as I can with it. I have heard some folks say that the support hand should be like a vise. I took this to mean that I should squeeze the bejesus out of that gun with my non-shooting hand. Am I wrong to assume this?

I have shot plenty of Burkett Timing Drills and I can more easily watch the sight move straight up and down when I have a relaxed grip. The flip side of the coin is that my splits are slower because the gun seems to be staying high when is recoils. I have tried a bunch of different recoil springs and, though this seems to help a bit, it doesn't entirely solves the issue.

By squeezing significantly harder with my support hand, the gun tracks back to its original position but many times the sights don't track in a perfectly vertical pattern.

[sincityshooter]

I've seen a few people that try to overpower the grip to fight the recoil. In reality all they need is a firmer base with weight a little more forward and elbows relaxed to absorb the recoil. Or you could just grip the hell out of it.

[Sam]

Cy, I don't think you're going off track at all. Remember what Brian said about "both hands as one feeling". I think you can have more grip pressure on one hand, just as you can stand with more weight on one foot. But, that "feel" is the thing you will never have to think about.

[Matt Griffin]

Just a nice firm grip is all that's necessary.

Forgive me if I am going on off-track here but I need to ask...

Does this also apply to the support hand or should I squeeze as hard as I can with it. I have heard some folks say that the support hand should be like a vise. I took this to mean that I should squeeze the bejesus out of that gun with my non-shooting hand. Am I wrong to assume this?

I have shot plenty of Burkett Timing Drills and I can more easily watch the sight move straight up and down when I have a relaxed grip. The flip side of the coin is that my splits are slower because the gun seems to be staying high when is recoils. I have tried a bunch of different recoil springs and, though this seems to help a bit, it doesn't entirely solves the issue.

By squeezing significantly harder with my support hand, the gun tracks back to its original position but many times the sights don't track in a perfectly vertical pattern.

There are two different things happening here. First, the purpose of the grip is to connect you to the gun, so you need to hold it as hard as is necessary to keep the gun from moving inside your grip during recoil. This is fairly hard, but not too hard. The support strength comes into play because the more you grip with your support, the less you have to use your strong hand, and thus bind the trigger finger. To put it another way: The end result should be the same, but if you can push the ratio over to the support hand, go for it. For example say that with my grip, power factor, and surface area I need to apply 100 fig newtons to the gun. (I can't remember if a newton is the right unit, so I'm using fig newtons) People who don't know about the freestyle grip would tend to use a Weaver and have their strong hand apply 70 figs, and their weak 30. We're looking for the opposite, but the ending force is still the same total.

Second is recoil management and tracking, this has much more to do with the tension in your wrists and arms than in your hands. The reason we see improved recoil control with a death grip is because we're sympathetically increasing the tension in our wrists and arms. A sufficient amount of tension is necessary to maintain a position; point at an object with a rigid forearm and upper arm, and smack your hand away. It will return to the same point. Now do it with a loose arm and see that your pointing arm just flops to the side. Tension through the whole platform equates to "I want to be pointing THIS WAY!" the mental desire to return to the right position. Grip doesn't help this at all, in my experience.

So check that the gun doesn't squirm in your grip at all, and make everything else a rigid turret (this is a good place for the "increase until shaking, then back off" method,) and you'll be on the right path.

[Cy Soto]

Tension through the whole platform equates to "I want to be pointing THIS WAY!" the mental desire to return to the right position. Grip doesn't help this at all, in my experience.

So check that the gun doesn't squirm in your grip at all, and make everything else a rigid turret (this is a good place for the "increase until shaking, then back off" method,) and you'll be on the right path.

You've given me some good "food for thought"! I will play around with this ratio. Thanks!

[benos]

Just a nice firm grip is all that's necessary.

Forgive me if I am going on off-track here but I need to ask...

Does this also apply to the support hand or should I squeeze as hard as I can with it. I have heard some folks say that the support hand should be like a vise. I took this to mean that I should squeeze the bejesus out of that gun with my non-shooting hand. Am I wrong to assume this?

I have shot plenty of Burkett Timing Drills and I can more easily watch the sight move straight up and down when I have a relaxed grip. The flip side of the coin is that my splits are slower because the gun seems to be staying high when is recoils. I have tried a bunch of different recoil springs and, though this seems to help a bit, it doesn't entirely solves the issue.

By squeezing significantly harder with my support hand, the gun tracks back to its original position but many times the sights don't track in a perfectly vertical pattern.

Right. That's the product of "over gripping." Like Matt said, experiment with backing off your support hand grip, a bit at a time, until you have a as firm as grip as possible, that allows the sight to track back to its original position every time. And then remember that grip as one feeling:

Cy, I don't think you're going off track at all. Remember what Brian said about "both hands as one feeling". I think you can have more grip pressure on one hand, just as you can stand with more weight on one foot. But, that "feel" is the thing you will never have to think about.

One more point. When your grip is to tense, you lose the ability to drive the front sight back to its original position after the shot fires. Go back to Burkett's timing drills, and experiment with your grip until you find the grip that tracks the sights the most consitently. Then repeat a timimg drill, with two goals. First, briefly pause before you fire the first shot, to confirm the correct feeling of your grip. The quickly shift all of your attention to your front sight. The goal being to visually push the sight back into the rear notch with each shot. It's like you "grab" the front sight with your eyes, and "make it" return to the rear notch. You can't think your way through it - it has to happen as an act of will. The simple visual goal to get the sight back on target as quickly as possible is all that's needed. And, a not overly tense grip.

With some practice, I found that I could consistently shoot the fastest and most accurate splits with just a nice firm, not tense, grip. Even though the front sight appeared to have went higher during recoil.

be

[kreativecid]

My pre shoot routine includes a reminder to introduce my shooting hand to the grip. Introduce: Firm union, nothing limpy or freakishly strong. Make it comfortable for hand and gun to spend a lot of time together to get the job done.

[Gordian]

I'm going to go against the grain here and say why not try a deathgrip, but a more even one with grip pressure on both hands? I've heard TGO espouse a very, very firm grip. The only one who knows what is right for you is you. Experiment and keep good notes.