Aiming through mesh walls

[slidelock1]

This kind of debate can go on ad infinitum, whether or not it is legal to aim through a wall. I was at the range on the day this occurred, and the intent of the course designer was clear to 99% of the shooters. A loophole? Maybe. In any case, congratulations to Oddjob for thinking out of the box, and, also, for bringing this issue to the general shooting public. Going forward, if this is okay to do, is it also legal to shoot under walls, between the cracks of two connecting walls; can we push or pull a wall to get a sight on a target; could we climb on top of a barrel to shoot otherwise hidden targets, and so on, you get the idea. Perhaps, the rulebook needs to be modified,. Until such time as it is, I think we ought to get a ruling from USPSA on this so that we can go forward without wondering whether an RO, or Match Director, or whomever at other matches will rule such action as deserving a penalty. M.

[Thomas H]

This kind of debate can go on ad infinitum, whether or not it is legal to aim through a wall. I was at the range on the day this occurred, and the intent of the course designer was clear to 99% of the shooters. A loophole? Maybe. In any case, congratulations to Oddjob for thinking out of the box, and, also, for bringing this issue to the general shooting public. Going forward, if this is okay to do, is it also legal to shoot under walls, between the cracks of two connecting walls; can we push or pull a wall to get a sight on a target; could we climb on top of a barrel to shoot otherwise hidden targets, and so on, you get the idea. Perhaps, the rulebook needs to be modified,. Until such time as it is, I think we ought to get a ruling from USPSA on this so that we can go forward without wondering whether an RO, or Match Director, or whomever at other matches will rule such action as deserving a penalty. M.

Aren't most of those already covered?

Shooting under a wall: No, walls go from the ground to the height as constructed unless specified otherwise in the WSB. (2.2.3.3)

Between cracks in connecting walls: If you can see it, you can shoot it. If they meant them to be connected, then the stage crew should have connected them. (1.1.5)

Can you push/pull a wall: No, you may not alter the stage design to give yourself a competitive advantage. (4.5.1)

Can you climb a barrel: That is actually a good question--the rulebook clearly differentiates between obstacles and barriers, including different construction criteria. However, I don't see any place that specifically says you can climb a barrier such as a barrel---other than the fact that it would likely result in a DQ for doing something unsafe at some point in time while climbing it, as they are light, not fixed in position, tall, and unstable. I can't think of any stage I've ever seen where someone would try this, though, so I'm actually not worried about it. And if someone started to try, I'd watch them for safety issues (as an RO, that's my job anyway), and if they didn't have any troubles, I don't see any problems with it. I'm betting they'd lose a lot of time and have a much lower hit factor, though...particularly when you factor in that they would probably move the barrel, which brings in 4.5.1, and they'd get a procedural penalty for it. (Same answer for hanging from a wall to shoot over it.)

The rulebook seems to cover things perfectly well.

Regarding walls: if it is mesh and can be seen through, then you can aim through it but not shoot through it. If you wanted it to be a vision barrier, then it should have been constructed that way. Not hard to do. And certainly no reason to add extra rules. I certainly agree that any time I see the word "intent" (as in "intent of the stage designer") it makes me think "someone missed something in their stage design/construction, and someone else figured it out and everyone else is unhappy." Next time, put in a vision barrier.

Edited to add: But hey, that's just my opinion, and I'm nobody. I must say, though, that where I shoot we go by what the rulebook says---and if it doesn't say "vision barrier" then it doesn't mean "vision barrier."

Thanks for making me think on the barrel thing, though. I can't think of a specific rule against it if you managed it safely, other than a procedural if you moved the barrel. Hmm....

Edited January 20, 2011 by Thomas H

[coldchar]

Well, I have a lot to learn, but I was under the impression that regardless of what it is made of, a wall, is a wall, is a wall. And walls are opaque and you are not supposed to be able to sight through them unless your last name is Kent.

Not all walls are opaque. Heck, there are only "hard cover" because we declare them to be so in the rule book.

As of yet, we don't have any pretend [declared] vision barriers. I have no idea how we would police that if we did.

Certainly agree with Flex, upon appeal of the procedure, how do I ,as the RO, come up with a supporting arguement to establish how & where the shooter was looking? Kind of like doing a FTE on a Texas Star after 5 shots have been fired. Jim G.

[professor]

And so the question comes back up again about classifier CM03-09 On The Move. Don't people who shoot the classifier with a mesh wall get an advantage over those who shoot it with a solid wall? People can start setting up on the next target earlier by aiming through the mesh and breaking the shot as they clear the wall.

It specifically states "vision barrier" in the stage diagram. It should be built with a true vision barrier.

(opps...XRe beat me to that one.)

I'll just add that, if you know what you're doing as a shooter, you're setting up on the target and breaking the shot as soon as the target appears whether you've got a mesh wall or a solid wall anyway, so...

Another reason for a solid vision barrier in this classifier is that time is saved by breaking the shot as soon as a target becomes visible, and that comes into play for 2 targets of each string. If the shooter is prepping the trigger in anticipation of clearing the vision barrier, but lets it loose an instant too soon, then he is nicking or full diameter hit on the vision barrier. A solid wall vision barrier [or even a construction tarp] will show that full diameter hit. A mesh wall will not, unless the shooter hits the framing, or nicks the orange plastic mesh itself.

Full diameter hit means a Mike, partial dia hit counts for score. Bullet through the mesh is most likely to not be penalized at all.

Also, ROs must repair hits after each shooter, so that subsequent hits trigger penalties, as incurred. How do you repair orange mesh walls, especially at the ends where the mesh was cut to attach to the frame?

Bottom line: don't use mesh walls as vision barriers, because they aren't.

[mhs]

And so the question comes back up again about classifier CM03-09 On The Move. Don't people who shoot the classifier with a mesh wall get an advantage over those who shoot it with a solid wall? People can start setting up on the next target earlier by aiming through the mesh and breaking the shot as they clear the wall.

It specifically states "vision barrier" in the stage diagram. It should be built with a true vision barrier.

(opps...XRe beat me to that one.)

I'll just add that, if you know what you're doing as a shooter, you're setting up on the target and breaking the shot as soon as the target appears whether you've got a mesh wall or a solid wall anyway, so...

If you put your finger in the trigger guard during movement, but before you're aiming or shooting at targets, it's a DQ. With a mesh wall you don't have to wait until you see the target around the wall before you prep the trigger.

[steel1212]

And so the question comes back up again about classifier CM03-09 On The Move. Don't people who shoot the classifier with a mesh wall get an advantage over those who shoot it with a solid wall? People can start setting up on the next target earlier by aiming through the mesh and breaking the shot as they clear the wall.

It specifically states "vision barrier" in the stage diagram. It should be built with a true vision barrier.

(opps...XRe beat me to that one.)

I'll just add that, if you know what you're doing as a shooter, you're setting up on the target and breaking the shot as soon as the target appears whether you've got a mesh wall or a solid wall anyway, so...

If you put your finger in the trigger guard during movement, but before you're aiming or shooting at targets, it's a DQ. With a mesh wall you don't have to wait until you see the target around the wall before you prep the trigger.

With a solid wall you don't either. If you have done your stage prep you know where that target is before you get there and as soon as its visible your breaking the shot. Its as simple as picking a spot on the wall to index on before you get there and your gun is ready to go when you do. You don't have to SEE the target to AIM at a target you know is there.

[XRe]

I'll just add that, if you know what you're doing as a shooter, you're setting up on the target and breaking the shot as soon as the target appears whether you've got a mesh wall or a solid wall anyway, so...

If you put your finger in the trigger guard during movement, but before you're aiming or shooting at targets, it's a DQ. With a mesh wall you don't have to wait until you see the target around the wall before you prep the trigger.

You're making one assumption - that is that one's finger must be in the trigger guard to raise the gun and aim it at a target (or the place where the target will appear) for the action to be effective. The move from finger outside the trigger guard to shot fired is ridiculously quick - so quick as to almost be non-existant with a skilled shooter. Again, to someone who knows what they're doing, the difference between a mesh wall and a solid wall is pretty minimal. It's definitely there, no doubt - but it's not the huge advantage everyone is imagining it to be for a skilled and knowledgeable shooter.

Further, and to the DQ point, I'd like to meet the RO who can accurately assess both when the shooter has cleared the barrier enough to see the target and see the position of the shooter's finger exactly enough to fairly call a DQ in that situation. (I'll give you a hint - the RO would have to be standing in two different positions at the same time to make that assessment....)

[mhs]

If you put your finger in the trigger guard during movement, but before you're aiming or shooting at targets, it's a DQ. With a mesh wall you don't have to wait until you see the target around the wall before you prep the trigger.

You're making one assumption - that is that one's finger must be in the trigger guard to raise the gun and aim it at a target (or the place where the target will appear) for the action to be effective. The move from finger outside the trigger guard to shot fired is ridiculously quick - so quick as to almost be non-existant with a skilled shooter. Again, to someone who knows what they're doing, the difference between a mesh wall and a solid wall is pretty minimal. It's definitely there, no doubt - but it's not the huge advantage everyone is imagining it to be for a skilled and knowledgeable shooter.

Actually, I didn't make that assumption, I specified "prep the trigger". To a skilled and knowledgeable reader this should have been obvious.

Further, and to the DQ point, I'd like to meet the RO who can accurately assess both when the shooter has cleared the barrier enough to see the target and see the position of the shooter's finger exactly enough to fairly call a DQ in that situation. (I'll give you a hint - the RO would have to be standing in two different positions at the same time to make that assessment....)

Just because you can get away with knowingly violating the rules doesn't make it right. Your choice, of course.

[Flexmoney]

We are done here.

Closed.