Scooter Posted December 28, 2002 Share Posted December 28, 2002 I shoot with my hand close to the receiver on my rifle and shotgun. I've notice a lot of shooters have their hands closer to the muzzle. Which is the ideal position? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
howardw Posted December 28, 2002 Share Posted December 28, 2002 I've been wondering this same thing. When standing and shooting offhand it feels most natural for me to grab the front of the lower receiver like a vertical foregrip. What's wrong with this. I have so many AR questions... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kellyn Posted December 28, 2002 Share Posted December 28, 2002 Having the support arm folded back and holding the magazine or magazine well provides the most stable offhand position otherwise silhouette-smallbore-highpower shooters would not do it. However we're not shooting in those events. We're engaging much bigger targets and A WHOLE LOT more of them. So stability is not the only issue, transitions between targets and mobility are as big a factor. That's why you'll see action/practical rifle shooters using an extended support arm. It's much more akin to a shotgunner's style of holding the weapon. Shotgunner's have to worry about swinging the gun around which is much easier when the gun is held farther out. This is one reason I don't like shorty ARs, I want to hold the rifle in front of the sight. There is no ideal position so try different stuff and see what works for you. Many tactical-oriented instructors really dislike this position however. Some raise issues about weapon retention and CQB concerns about banging your weak elbow. Those are possibly valid points but I've shot in a lot of tight positions in houses/ditches/hooches/tunnels and I have yet to bang my left elbow. I have not had to wrestle with anyone over my AR so I have no opinion as to the retention issue. Other instructors simply don't like anything to do with IPSC. As for the vertical foregrip in my opinion it's a loser for competiton. I think it may have tactical/CQB benefits in regards to gun retention. I have not seen any really good three gunner use a vertical foregrip. I know KyleL has one for his AR but I did not see him use in North Carolina. I tried one and gave it up and so did Tim Milkovich. I think they slow down transitions. Hopefully Kyle will tell us what he thinks. (Edited by kellyn at 2:47 pm on Jan. 1, 2003) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kurtm Posted December 28, 2002 Share Posted December 28, 2002 Scooter: I agree almost 100% with Kelly ( this is happening more and more and should scare most readers!), and for almost the same reasons. I have found that holding the carbine close i.e. mag well or just in front, causes the shooter to "over control" the front of the weapon, any small movement back here causes alot of muzzle movement, so does holding the fore arm with a death grip. If your rapid pairs are scattered i.e. 1 A and a maybe hit, chances are that changing your grip out and looser will help immensely. A quick pair ( about 1.25 sec from low ready at 15 yds should both land in the A zone) is almost impossible while holding the mag well as you done have the recoil control of a wider shooting platform. Elbow under the gun a la national match and Marine corp. doctrin works great in the up and down plane but not in the side to side, i.e. swinging for alot of targets. Vertical fore grips blow. they are great for holding the gun at low ready for extended time, i.e. patroling, but do nothing for accuracy, or quick shooting. As for retentioin they are great for wrestling with but hampper using the weapon as an impact device when wrestling for it ( in my opinion). Never hit my elbow either!! In the context of match shooting the vertical fore grip causes the shooter to tense and hunch. Neither is good for accuracy nor quik engagement nor is holding the mag well or close to it!!! KURT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
howardw Posted December 28, 2002 Share Posted December 28, 2002 Kelly and Kurt, Thanks for the info. I've shot some skeet and understand what you mean about swinging and transitions. I'll play around with this a see how it works. It's interesting the differences between "tactical" and "practical" shooting philosophies. I'm familar with the debates as far as pistol shooting, but I'm just getting into long gun shooting... Thanks, Howard Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SGDM Posted January 1, 2003 Share Posted January 1, 2003 Kelly/Kurt, I will have to disagree with you boys on this one, some. You need to get your hand out as far as you can, but comfortable. It's plain physics. You can transition much faster while conducting multiple shots/engagements, snapping the weapon from tgt to tgt. Not swinging. As for the vertical foregrip, I have always used one and I am pretty damn fast with it. It all depends on what you train with. It also depends on what shots I am taking. Sometimes I use the grip, sometimes I don't. I will tell you this, shooting Tactical/Limited iron sights in the prone, 300 m shots, that grip makes a nice mono-pod!! It's better to have it and not need it than need it and not have it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KyleL Posted January 1, 2003 Share Posted January 1, 2003 Kelly, The only reason I like a forward pistol grip is it makes it easier to control my light. You were right I don't use one for 3 gun. With Jeff Cramblits new light mount my pistol grip may go away completely. The pistol grip also gets in the way when shooting over a car hood and in some other weird positions. As far as weapons retention, alot of cops and GIs grip the front of their lower receiver or move their pistol grip way back... That is also a no go, not just for shooting multiple tgts but if you have a 300 lb gorilla with bad breath holding onto your barrel. He will be alot easier to remove if your hand is farther out. Now on to bumping elbows. Shoot like you are at Camp Perry and it will happen, drop your elbow like a Tactical/Practical shooter and it won't be an issue. You may need to raise an elbow every now and then to stop a blow or administer one to the afore mentioned Gorilla. Hope everyone has a Happy New Year filled with the sound of gunfire..... ADIOS KyleL Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kurtm Posted January 2, 2003 Share Posted January 2, 2003 SGDM: Don't tell Jerry, Jimmy(both Holdsworth and Clark), Mike, Bennie( both Hill and Cooley), Todd, Eric/Kurt(both Millers), Tony, Blane, Eddie, Bruce, Kelly, Jake, Don, Taran, Darren... and a host of others that "swinging, instead of snapping, from target to target doesn't work!!! Think of how "great" they would be if they knew!!!! Do I need to mention that I agree with Kyle on the verticle fore grip?? And Kelly?? WOW Kyle, Kelly, Kurt, all in alignment?? It's "gonna be" a great year!!! Now if I just could get that Alkaseltzer truck to back up to the door......... Happy New Year Salud Y Dinero Y muchos balas. KURT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lcarr Posted January 2, 2003 Share Posted January 2, 2003 Quote: from KyleL on 11:43 am on Jan. 1, 2003 The only reason I like a forward pistol grip is it makes it easier to control my light. You were right I don't use one for 3 gun. With Jeff Cramblits new light mount my pistol grip may go away completely. I'm in the same boat. My 3 Gun upper doesn't have a foregrip and I shoot it with the off-hand well forward. I got a Sure-Fire foregrip for my "tactical" upper, though, because it seemed like the best light available and it seemed comfortable when using a short-barreled upper for room clearing, etc. As Kelly observed, the short-barreled AR uppers make it hard to get a "normal" hand forward grip. It is debatable, though, how necessary a short barrel is for room clearing, etc. Do you have any links for this new light mount? Lincoln Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kellyn Posted January 2, 2003 Share Posted January 2, 2003 This is good tidings: the three K's all in agreement! Now if I could just get Kurt to turn that thang upside down to load it and get Kyle to admit that 2 scopes on a rifle can be tactical, the stars would be in perfect alignment and peace would reign. kyle brings up a good point that I had not thought about. The foregrip can really block you from resting the rifle on tables, carhoods etc. I'd rather have the rifle rested along the handguard on a table than having it stick up resting on a foregrip. SGDM, I don't understand how you can use a foregrip as a monopod as they don't stick down as far as a 30 round magazine. Would you explain how you do that? Finally, I would not necessarily always use a shotgunner's style stance. I certainly don't when I delve into highpower or silhouette where steadiness is at a premium. Likewise when I shoot team challenge-style course with a .22, I use a more conventional position but the target transitions are minimal and there is no movement on the shooter's part. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SGDM Posted January 2, 2003 Share Posted January 2, 2003 Kurt, I just try to keep my stuff standardized, play gun/work gun, keeps bad habit transfer to a minimum. I like my "ghetto grip"! If you swing, you might lolly gag. If you ever get the chance to shoot with Kyle, you better not lolly gag, trust me. Swing is a dance in Texas! Kelly, I use a 20 rnd mag, works good, last long time...Ricky Venus!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KyleL Posted January 3, 2003 Share Posted January 3, 2003 Icarr, I just talked with Jeff and I hope to have the new light mounts on our web site by Feb. There is a picture of one on my Web site mounted on his tube, but the new one will work on any picatinny rail. If you use a short barrel and you can't get your hand out far enough just put on the long tube. I like the JP (doesn't heat up) or the Jeff Cramblit (Picatinny to move around only where you need it. Kelly, with a forward pistol grip withthe light mounted directly above it you can actually use it as a mono pod. No one sells this set up, we made them ourselves.. Before Surefire thought of it. On the surefire note, great lights but you don't have to put the rifle light on the rifle. A regular 6P without the shock absorber on the inside holds up fine on the light recoil M4. This will also save you, Oh 500 dollars, Just happens to be the same amount as that pistol you have been wanting. God Bless The USA!!!!!!!!!!!! KyleL Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lcarr Posted January 3, 2003 Share Posted January 3, 2003 Quote: from KyleL on 5:26 pm on Jan. 2, 2003 There is a picture of one on my Web site mounted on his tube, but the new one will work on any picatinny rail. ... On the surefire note, great lights but you don't have to put the rifle light on the rifle. A regular 6P without the shock absorber on the inside holds up fine on the light recoil M4. This will also save you, Oh 500 dollars, Just happens to be the same amount as that pistol you have been wanting. What's the website? About the Sure-Fire light, the last class I took with Louis Awerbuck, I was using a borrowed rifle with a 6P in a ring mounted on the rail fore end. Without the shock isolating bezel, I broke the bulb in short order, from firing, not rough handling. Of course, one can get the shock isolating bezel separately and construct something that is a lot cheaper than the foregrip unit, but I don't think the user interface is as good for manipulating the light, e.g., turning it to "constant on" easily, and one won't get the navigation lights, which are a neat toy. Lincoln (Edited by lcarr at 6:13 pm on Jan. 2, 2003) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Les Snyder Posted January 3, 2003 Share Posted January 3, 2003 kellyn...I humbly bow to you and KyleL for the expertese, but thought I would pass this on as it works for me (old fat school teacher with bifocals) at the ranges we shoot here in Florida. I was given a Knight vertical fore grip as a thank you for proof reading the SOPMOD manual by the author... and use it as a monopod/barricade support. With the fist balled, you can grasp the bottom of the handle with a couple of the top fingers and clear a 30round mag... I think the position is called the "Hawkins". It is mounted on a 16inch flat top with EGW full float tube, with a 10-22 rail underneath. I index my finger down the foregard like with a shotgun and it acts like a stop to keep my hand off the hot front sight tower for most targets. I'm O for 2 on the houseclearings at Kyle's match, but the shorter barrel is a definite advantage for me... I've been practicing throwing the rifle over my shoulder, but I'm sure Kyle will have something more diabolical this year. Hope to be there ... regards Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kurtm Posted January 3, 2003 Share Posted January 3, 2003 SGDM: There is a lot to be said for standardizing work and "play" equipment, "on that we all agree" ( sorry couldn't help but to quote the old Waylon Jenings song). That is what sparked the great 9 page define "tactical" debate. As to lolly gaging, I haven't shot with Kyle but I have shot in matches against him, as well as all the folks I mentioned befor. So far I'm holding my own. I haven't finished out of the top ten at any major 3 gun match I've shot since 1996, and even managed to win a couple. S.O.F. W.C.3 G. and S.M.M.3 G. are the matches I usually shoot and at the very first S.O.F. I shot, I finished 26th and Kyle finished 15th, top tyro. since then I haven't finished out of the top ten. Funny thing, Kyle won a bunch of Russian crap Bob Brown brought back from Afganistan I.E. RPG sight and some other equaly glorious junk, I won a suppresed 10-22 for second tyro; but I digress, snaps hold shirts together and flap holsters closed neather are very fast. As for the getto grip I just can't see it on my work rifle ( an M14) but if it works for you that is what counts. After all it is your work....er...carbine. KURT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SGDM Posted January 3, 2003 Share Posted January 3, 2003 When my Boss enters the room, you better snap to attention! If you swing to attention, he might think you Gay. I beat Kyle, with the grip, in the "house" at his match. lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kellyn Posted January 3, 2003 Share Posted January 3, 2003 les, I played with your modified Hawkins position. It's steady but no steadier than simply resting on the 30 round magazine. It is also more difficult to pan the rifle (sorry Kurt, I meant carbine) horizontally than simply using the magazine. But if it works for you........ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kurtm Posted January 4, 2003 Share Posted January 4, 2003 SGDM: Just let him know that "Bob Wills is still the king!". I think you have one upped me on the swing, snap thing. I bet we do it the same way and are just misunderstanding the semantics! Still don't go for the "ape hanger" grip thing, as well as holding the darn CARBINE close to the mag well or by it and I have lots of company on that, if not good company. Tell your boss to lighten up!!! I was happy if my guys showed a little more attention than "comatose". Of course they were all Bolivian and not in the Military. Go figure! KURT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KyleL Posted January 4, 2003 Share Posted January 4, 2003 Icarr, The web site is http://www.vikingtactics.com I never use the rifle bezel surefire and have never been able to atribute a burnt bulb to the recoil. I have always replaced my bulbs on a regular basis. Once a year so they won't leave me hangin. You are right about that Surefire being cool with the running lights and all. I like those fancy license plate lights that flash around when you hit your brakes too, but I would never put them on my truck... LOL Kurt, You know I always wondered why ol Brown gave me a bunch of crap for being high tyro... I did what every good American should do with Soviet made stuff.. Gave it away.... I believe another reason guys put the Pistol grip on is because after you add a few things to the forend there isn't any room left for your paw. That is also why I like the long free float tube on the short 14.5-16 inch barrel. SGDM.... There is a very good reason you beat me in the house. I helped set up the stage and then ran right by two targets...Me Not stupid, me just no think fast... God Bless The USA!!!!!!!! KyleL Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SGDM Posted January 4, 2003 Share Posted January 4, 2003 Kurt, What Kyle said about the grip. Kelly, I was always taught to keep the hand and ground away from the mag. You can wear the mag and parts by hanging on to it or placing it on the ground and induce malfunctions. However, it does work. Kyle, If you a'int cheat'in, you a'int try'in. I watched you run by the Tangos and whispered....2 on the right! hehe You always beat me about the head to move with a purpose! Kyle has those soft Blue lights mounted under his truck! Freedom a'int Free! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BPiatt Posted January 4, 2003 Share Posted January 4, 2003 This thread is bouncing between 'match' shooting and 'tactical' applications. As far as I'm concerned, the vertical grips have there place, especially when there is a CAR/M4 length handguard. Military/Police weapons have a lot of lasers/lights/nvg clamped on and there is NO good place to put your hand. The vertical grips shine in this application. As far as match shooting with a 20" gun w/ long handguard, I prefer the hand foward position. As mentioned earlier, it's just plain physics. Imagine a broom handle the length of your rifle with a 'wiggling weight' at the end. (the wiggling weight will be recoil effects) Ask yourself where would you hold it to keep it as steady as possible??? This is the reason I have my 'work rifle' (police work, that is) set up with a long gas system/handguard and a 16" barrel. The DPMS A2 Tactical 16 Bruce Piatt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kellyn Posted January 4, 2003 Share Posted January 4, 2003 I used to believe that placing the mag on the ground was verboten (see the forbidden monopod thread) but I've never had it cause a malfunction. I also duct tape the bottom of my mags to protect them. Bruce that's a good point about the grip's advantages when the handguard has 10 things bolted on it. I love the vision of Brown handing Kyle an RPG sight. Wish I had been there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kurtm Posted January 6, 2003 Share Posted January 6, 2003 Bruce/SGDM Good point about no place for the hand, but why do we seem to have all this stuff bolted to the rifle? I can understand an I.R. designater for use with N.V.G. These things can be taken off durring day light. Thats one thing on the rifle. I can understand a light on a L.E. gun ( however not these overly bright, over 120 lumens ones). Once again thats just one thing. Just because it all comes in the S.O.C.O.M. kit doesn't mean you have to bolt it all on at once. We were getting a demo by an H.R.T. "demon of darkness" on why all this stuff was soooo important on the rifle ( M4 carbine) all at once. I must admit I was really impressed with the amount of switches this thing had!! Two lights, both huge! ( everyone needs a backup he explained ). Two lasers, coherent and I.R. One for use with the lights on the rifle, one for use with NVGs. The one light /grip had a set of small blue "running lights" also. To top it all off he had an Aim Point and Litton NVD mounted behind it, plus a set of ANPV-7s on his helmet mount ( that back up thing again). No room for a hand on this bad boy!!!! Under just "timer" stress in a dark fun house, he hit the wrong switch and turned on his huge surefire ( 320 lumen?) light and cooked the little litton NVD. Not to be daunted he turned on his running lights for a little illumination while moving forward while he triggered his I.R. designater and finally lowered his gogles, out whent the lights. So far so good except where his pressure switch was mounted for his regular laser bumped against one of his knuckles while holding his "ape hanger"/ aircraft landing light/running light, creating a cool little red stobe spot that he didn't even notice. When it was all said and done he asked " who kept flashing the light when I was triing to shoot? It was very distracting". I bet that laser was real bright in the old ANPV-7s. Two other thing impressed me with this set up, the weight of this thing was phenominal! The amount of batteries was astronomical. The next day for an other demo the I.R. laser wouldn't work untill he changed batteries... because he left it on the day befor and couldn't see that it was on... I.R. don't you know. Now to tie this all back to this thread. If there isn't room for your hand it has way to much junk bolted on it! If you can't hold the Carbine in a some what spread out natural grip, it has to much stuff on it or it,s plain to short. I like the long hand guard on any 16" or shorter carbine, just like Kyle and Bruce, but then again I don't really like 16" and shorter barrels because I feel it cuts way back on the other wize marginal performance of the 223. KURT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SGDM Posted January 8, 2003 Share Posted January 8, 2003 Kurt, Sounds like that fella did not PCI or know how to operate his equipment. You are comparing apples and oranges, play gun/work gun. The SOPMOD program allows a fella to configure his kit as he sees fit. While conducting combat operations, you want every piece of kit that will allow you to find, fix, and effectively engage the enemy, giving you the edge. The end state is to survive the gun fight. We try to keep things standardized, kinda. Everyone likes things a little different but you only have so much room. If the weapon is heavy, then go to the gym! Freedom ain't free Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kurtm Posted January 8, 2003 Share Posted January 8, 2003 SGDM: This "guy" we were talking about is a member of the august F.B.I H.R.T. This was definitly not his "play gun". Those guys arent alowed to play!, Or so I'm told. Didn't know how to operate his gear?? I'd say, but you make the call. The point I was triing to make was this....Some equipment ( or as you of English decent like to say.. kit) is just not appropriate for the environment I have seen it in. Can you imagine running around a nice dark jungle or forest with trail watchers around turning on and off your head light/running lights? I can't and I'm sure you can't and yet there it all is. Seen this in the Bene, Potosi, and around Cochabomba. If it happens down there it probably happens every where. Yep ...finding the edge is what it,s all about and I agree with that, but if your M4 starts to weigh in around an M249, it,s time to rethink whats on it. Strip off some of the gear and head to the range not the gym. Shooting skill is perishable, P.T. is forever! KURT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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