zdog Posted January 6, 2011 Share Posted January 6, 2011 (edited) I am new to revolver shooting and am having problems working up a load for my 625-8. I have lots of WST and Precision RNFP 200 grain bullets. My problem is fouling in the barrel. I have tried 4.0 to 4.7 of WST and am not close to seeing the "I don't ever clean my revolver" results. I can drop the 200 grain bullets through the cylinder without any problem. I bought this gun used so I don't know what previous problems it may have had. I appears to have had little use. So if anyone has a load for these components I would appreciate a hint. I have been using an coal of 1.25 and running these rounds through a Dillon square deal press. I have the crimp set to one flat past where I can move the bullet by pushing on the head of the round against my bench. I don't need to make major but an looking for an easy shooting round for the friendly competitions at my club. Thanks, Zdog Edited January 6, 2011 by zdog Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom E Posted January 6, 2011 Share Posted January 6, 2011 WST needs to make some pressure to burn clean. It's really better with 230's. Try a 1.200" coal with 4.7 gr. You may need to add more powder than that, like going up to 5.0+ gr but try 4.7 first. I use WST with 230 JHP's for pins and 4.7 gr is the minimum I load. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aircooled6racer Posted January 6, 2011 Share Posted January 6, 2011 Hello: Check your crimp by removing the bullet from a loaded round. If you are removing the moly you have to much crimp. What you may be seeing is the moly that is left in the barrel. When I first started I would spend a long time getting the barrel clean of the moly that was left in there. As I got lazier I just left it in and it did not get any worse or effect the accuracy. I shoot 20 rounds of jacketed bullets through it and the moly is gone. I can't help with your load since I use Clays and load to 1.230" OAL. Thanks, Eric Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zdog Posted January 6, 2011 Author Share Posted January 6, 2011 WST needs to make some pressure to burn clean. It's really better with 230's. Try a 1.200" coal with 4.7 gr. You may need to add more powder than that, like going up to 5.0+ gr but try 4.7 first. I use WST with 230 JHP's for pins and 4.7 gr is the minimum I load. I reset the coal to 1.15 with the 4.7 of WST. The rounds shot fine and the cylinder stayed clean, that is, no unburned powder, but the barrel was nasty with what I believe to be Molly. The next poster suggested I pull a bullet and see of the Molly had been disturbed by the crimp. The answer is no. The whole base of the bullet was re-sized down but the Molly had not been cut. I may be getting blow by because the load is not hot enough. Thanks, Zdog Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
z40acp Posted January 6, 2011 Share Posted January 6, 2011 I don't use the style bullet you do but, I use 4.9 grains of WST with a lead {H&G 68} 200 grain bullet. My oal is 1.256". Because it is a pointy bullet, there probably is more base in the case than a RNFP. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom E Posted January 7, 2011 Share Posted January 7, 2011 I reset the coal to 1.15 with the 4.7 of WST. The rounds shot fine and the cylinder stayed clean, that is, no unburned powder, but the barrel was nasty with what I believe to be Molly. Thanks, Zdog I want to say don't worry how the barrel looks. Mine looks dirty but it comes right out with a pass with a brush. Doesn't seem to matter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
granderojo Posted January 7, 2011 Share Posted January 7, 2011 What are you useing for a crimp die? If the base of your bullet is being resized, this could be the problem. The lead can be resized after it's been seated but it won't expand back to the original size. This would affect the bullet sealing to the barrel (fouling) and could effect you FPS readings toward making Major PF. If you're useing a Lee Factory Crimp or Carbide Crimp die, I would recommend that it be replace with one that only crimps the case. Hope this helps. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zdog Posted January 7, 2011 Author Share Posted January 7, 2011 What are you useing for a crimp die? If the base of your bullet is being resized, this could be the problem. The lead can be resized after it's been seated but it won't expand back to the original size. This would affect the bullet sealing to the barrel (fouling) and could effect you FPS readings toward making Major PF. If you're useing a Lee Factory Crimp or Carbide Crimp die, I would recommend that it be replace with one that only crimps the case. Hope this helps. I am using a Dillon Square Deal press. I don't have any choice as to which die to use. The base of the bullet is definitly sized down to .4515 where the main body of the bullet remains 4542. I have already been warned about using the Lee Facotry Crimp Die by the folks over at Precision Bullets for that very reason. I may have to call Dillon and talk to them. Thanks, Zdog Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gordonm1 Posted January 7, 2011 Share Posted January 7, 2011 Your comment about the fouling could be coming from "blow by" is more appropriate for bare lead bullets where the sides of the bullet are bare lead that can be easily flame cut and foul the bore if the bullet does not obturate. Precision bullets may foul more with poor obturation too. There is nothing wrong with upping the powder charge to see what happens though. I'd suggest taking your loads through a wide spectrum of powder charges to near book max for your weight bullet. That way you get the experience of seeing how the loads react to different powder charges. It takes more bullets and money but you learn more. You may see fouling gets reduced as you go up in charges and you may see fouling increase but at least you will see what happens. Like alot of guys on this forum probably do, I'm loading alot for major power factor these days. With bare lead I certainly see more fouling on light loads if I start too far below major power factor. I think it's similar for the Precisions but I have not worked up too many loads for moly bullets yet. The range of fouling with precison bullets has been tighter and cleaner compared to lead. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zdog Posted January 7, 2011 Author Share Posted January 7, 2011 Your comment about the fouling could be coming from "blow by" is more appropriate for bare lead bullets where the sides of the bullet are bare lead that can be easily flame cut and foul the bore if the bullet does not obturate. Precision bullets may foul more with poor obturation too. There is nothing wrong with upping the powder charge to see what happens though. I'd suggest taking your loads through a wide spectrum of powder charges to near book max for your weight bullet. That way you get the experience of seeing how the loads react to different powder charges. It takes more bullets and money but you learn more. You may see fouling gets reduced as you go up in charges and you may see fouling increase but at least you will see what happens. Like alot of guys on this forum probably do, I'm loading alot for major power factor these days. With bare lead I certainly see more fouling on light loads if I start too far below major power factor. I think it's similar for the Precisions but I have not worked up too many loads for moly bullets yet. The range of fouling with precison bullets has been tighter and cleaner compared to lead. I was just going to call precision and see what they have to say. Thanks for you thoughts. Zdog Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
glockwerkes Posted January 8, 2011 Share Posted January 8, 2011 I've used lots of Precision black bullets, in both .45 and 9mm. If you are talking about the residue in the barrel (not unburned powder in the cylinder), don't sweat it. In my experience it gets to a certain point and then stops accumulating. I haven't seen any deterimental effects from it. As long as you're not cutting the coating with your crimp, you should be good. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zdog Posted January 8, 2011 Author Share Posted January 8, 2011 (edited) I've used lots of Precision black bullets, in both .45 and 9mm. If you are talking about the residue in the barrel (not unburned powder in the cylinder), don't sweat it. In my experience it gets to a certain point and then stops accumulating. I haven't seen any deterimental effects from it. As long as you're not cutting the coating with your crimp, you should be good. I talked to Dave over at Precision bullets and he said not to sweat the crimp resizing the bullet down to .4515 as long as it did not shave or disturb the Molly. Also he reminded me not to use the Lee factory crimp die because it would under size the bullet. I am using a Dillon Square deal press so no problem there. He also offered a couple of other maybe's about the fouling. If the crimp was allowing the remaining bullets in the cylinder to move either forwards or backwards that would shave the Molly and cause fouling. Yes, he said they will move either way if the crimp was not tight enough. Dave also suggested a crimp down to 468 or 469 on his 45 acp stuff. Second he advised a close look at the forcing cone. Machine marks or other imperfections would also cause fouling problems. My forcing cone looks nasty. It has a build up of power or lead that I am not exactly sure how to get off without buggering the metal. I have a Lewis lead remover and a kit to polish the forcing cone otw from Brownells just to cover my bases. I also want to try some Clays powder and see what that does. Zdog Edited January 8, 2011 by zdog Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
glockwerkes Posted January 8, 2011 Share Posted January 8, 2011 (edited) My forcing cone looks nasty. It has a build up of power or lead that I am not exactly sure how to get off without buggering the metal. I have a Lewis lead remover and a kit to polish the forcing cone otw from Brownells just to cover my bases. To get the crud out, wrap a piece of copper "Chore-Boy" pad around an old bore brush. It works quicker and faster than the Lewis tool. There have been various threads about cleaning preferences. I also want to try some Clays powder and see what that does. A little more thread drift. Try Solo 1000 with Precision bullets. Soft shooting and very little smoke. Rob Edited January 8, 2011 by glockwerkes Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zdog Posted January 9, 2011 Author Share Posted January 9, 2011 My forcing cone looks nasty. It has a build up of power or lead that I am not exactly sure how to get off without buggering the metal. I have a Lewis lead remover and a kit to polish the forcing cone otw from Brownells just to cover my bases. To get the crud out, wrap a piece of copper "Chore-Boy" pad around an old bore brush. It works quicker and faster than the Lewis tool. There have been various threads about cleaning preferences. I also want to try some Clays powder and see what that does. A little more thread drift. Try Solo 1000 with Precision bullets. Soft shooting and very little smoke. Rob Are you shooting 45acp and if so are they 200 or 230 with the s1000 powder and if so again,,,,what is recipe? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ede Posted January 10, 2011 Share Posted January 10, 2011 i use the 200gr. moly bullet and 4.4 WST with OAL of 1.25, but i shoot it in a Glock. no problems with it crapping up the glock factory barrel, i seldom clean it. not tried this load in my 625 or 1955 but expect it to do as well as in the bottom feeder. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zdog Posted January 10, 2011 Author Share Posted January 10, 2011 i use the 200gr. moly bullet and 4.4 WST with OAL of 1.25, but i shoot it in a Glock. no problems with it crapping up the glock factory barrel, i seldom clean it. not tried this load in my 625 or 1955 but expect it to do as well as in the bottom feeder. I tried some 200 grain mollys over 4.3 of wst in my 625 and had problems with unburned powder. Not as bad as when I tried 231 but still there. Increasing up to 4.7 seemed to solve that problem. I am trying to work up a soft shooting load for use at my club where anything goes. I have several different loads that I am going to try tomorrow. Zdog Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zdog Posted January 10, 2011 Author Share Posted January 10, 2011 i use the 200gr. moly bullet and 4.4 WST with OAL of 1.25, but i shoot it in a Glock. no problems with it crapping up the glock factory barrel, i seldom clean it. not tried this load in my 625 or 1955 but expect it to do as well as in the bottom feeder. I tried some 200 grain mollys over 4.3 of wst in my 625 and had problems with unburned powder. Not as bad as when I tried 231 but still there. Increasing up to 4.7 seemed to solve that problem. I am trying to work up a soft shooting load for use at my club where anything goes. I have several different loads that I am going to try tomorrow. Zdog I test fired my 625 today using precision bullets and bear bullets using 5.0 of wst with a couple of different seating depths. I did not have fouling fouling problems or unburnt powder problems. Cleaning the forcing cone seems to have helped reduce the fouling. The down side is that these are fairly stout loads. I am going to try come clays and or solo 1000 to see if I can reduce the load without getting back into the unburned powder in the cylinder problem. Can anyone confirm that the forcing cone on the 625-8 is 11 degrees? Thanks, Zdog Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hovbuild Posted January 30, 2011 Share Posted January 30, 2011 I just switched to wst using a lead tc 230. I have tried 4.7-5.0 with a col of 1.20. These are a bit hot but I am a pin shooter and like driving these around 900 fps. The 5.0 is on the verge of flattening the primer a bit but both loads shoot clean and at pin distances are one hole shooters. I shoot these in a 5" 1911 and my 625...I also use 255 swc on occasion, when there is a lot of shooters and the pins get heavy. I can't use wst because it is too fast but use unique at 5.7-6.4 for these loads. They group at 2 inches but the 230 get below 1"@ 30'. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CocoBolo Posted January 30, 2011 Share Posted January 30, 2011 (edited) Well you wheel gunners sure poke a lota powder behind your bullets. For a reference point w/200 GR Precision moly in my single stack wheeless gun I use 4.7gr of WST, the load for Clays is 4.3gr and both of these make major with no signs of pressure. Both are clean and the Clays has very little smoke. BayouBullets are super clean smokeless but not as consistent as the Precision, however I've shot very well in matches with them, and they take less powder to go fast. A local Master Class wheel gunner runs the Bayou and he is the most accurate guy at a match so they will do the job. +1 on the copper chore boy. Stay away from chemicals, I ruined a barrel with the proxide and vinegar mix, got one of those battery draining phone calls from work and went over the 15 minutes. Edited January 30, 2011 by CocoBolo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom E Posted January 31, 2011 Share Posted January 31, 2011 Can anyone confirm that the forcing cone on the 625-8 is 11 degrees? I believe it's 9 degrees. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zdog Posted January 31, 2011 Author Share Posted January 31, 2011 Can anyone confirm that the forcing cone on the 625-8 is 11 degrees? I believe it's 9 degrees. Thanks for the reply....I called Colt and got a "we think it is 11 degrees" answer. I pushed him a little and could not get a positive answer. You are the second to reply that it is other than 11 degrees. I think it is time to get the parts from Brownells to hone the forcing cone out to 11 degrees. I talked to a bullet manufacturer that said that changing to 11 degrees was the single best thing I could do for accuracy other than use his bullets...LOL Thanks, ZDog Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zdog Posted January 31, 2011 Author Share Posted January 31, 2011 I tried using some clays powder....3.5 grains with a 200 precision bullet. Shoots soft and no powder residue. I just tried some mastercaster bullets in tc230 over 3.5 to 3.9 of clays at 1.21 oal. They shoot great but I am still getting a little lead buildup in the forcing cone. The mastercaster bullets are a 14 hardness level. The next batch I order I think I will ask for some softer bullets. ZDog Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shadowrider Posted February 1, 2011 Share Posted February 1, 2011 I got a good bit of leading in my 625-8 with WST and 16BN hardness 230 RNs. Got it cleaned out and tried some Clays and it is a good bit cleaner. I haven't chrono'd yet so when I get up to PF I might still have a problem, but I'm liking the Clays so far. That said I love WST in my autos with lead bullets, I've burned 8lbs so far and just bought another 8lbs. But WST just doesn't seem to run as clean in the wheelies for some reason and you can forget about getting all of it off the bead blasted exterior of the cylinder. I soaked mine in Kroil for a week and still have a couple of spots. Oh well that's just character showing, we buy them to shoot right? You might be on the right track going to a softer alloy, but really 12 to 14 hardness should run if all things are correct. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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