Help - Adjusting Powder Charge

[constable79]

Fairly new forum member. Need help with proper powder charges. For background information, I have been reloading for 25+ years, mostly pistol. Recenlty I have started to reload for 9mm and have run into an issue I've never had before. Unlike most of the experts on this forum, I do not shoot competition, most of my shooting is plinking/target shooting and teaching my sons proper shooting stance, trigger control,etc.

My problem with 9mm reloads.

I started by using the data in my Speer 14 manual. Made a batch of 50. Since I didn't own a 9mm pistol at the time, I tried them in my friends Glock and they worked perfect. Based on this I loaded up a large batch of reloads. I recently purchased a Springfield Armory XDm 9mm 3.8 Compact. Went off to the range with my reloads and the rounds failed to go completely in battery (admonishes self for failure to barrel check reloads in MY pistol). My reloads pass my Dillon case gage with no issues. Sizing die is set properly for full length resizing.

The reloads were:

Berry's 124gr plated HP

COAL: 1.123" (manual states 1.120-1.169)

Bullseye: 4.2gr (also have 231 and American Select available for use)

Cases: mixed headstamps

Crimp: .3765"

When I returned home, I barrel checked my reloads and barrel checked with commerical loads of 115gr. The commercial loads dropped into the barrel with the expected "kerplunk" and fell right out. My reloads fell into the barrel but did not enter as far as the commercial rounds. This has led me to the conclusion that my reloads need a shorter OAL due to bullet profile, hence my dilema. Shortening the OAL will put me below the minumum OAL of the manual. This takes me out of my comfort zone since I have never done that and I do not know how to adjust the powder charge appropriately. I have been told that plated bullets should be loaded using lead bullet data but I cannot find any specific lead loading data. I did find jacketed loads in an old Sierra reloading manual that showed the 124gr with an OAL of 1.080-1.090, well below my current manual. I have not had the chance to play with my reloads to determine what the final OAL needs to be to work in my pistol so I cannot tell you the new number. As a side note, the 115gr commercial loads I shot were also below the minimum stated in my reloading manual at 1.125 (manual states the min for RN is 1.135).

Can anyone point me to where I can obtain proper load data for when I reduce the OAL below the manual's minimum or how to properly calculate a load range when reducing OAL? I guess I could avoid the headache and just give my reloads to my friend since they work in his Glock and start over with some new MG's but I really would like to further my reloading knowledge and learn how to do this properly and safely.

I apologize for the long post and look forward to your guidance and the wisdom of the experts on this forum.

Thank you.

Edited January 2, 2011 by constable79

[Bevenue]

Well don't don't know if the OAL should be longer for lead/plated than jacketed. But here is some from my books.

Lyman third edition

125Gr JHP 1.075OAL

Hornady 7th edition

124GR HP-XTP 1.060OAL

124GR FMJ-FP ENC 1.050OAL

Lyman third edition has the Bullseye with 3.3MIN to 3.9MAX. With a 125GR lead bullet. May want to double check your load data with a few more sources.

[G-ManBart]

First off, get more manuals

SAAMI minimum OAL is 1.000". Speer may have used a minimum of 1.125", but that's actually slightly on the long side, and some bullets won't work at that length. If you drop one of your reloads in the chamber, and push it in a bit, does it leave a mark on the bullet? In other words, are you sure it's contact with the bullet that is stopping it from chambering completely?

Lyman shows a 121gr lead bullet at 1.110" with a max of 4.4gr of Bullseye. They also show a different 121gr lead bullet at 1.065" and a max of 4.2gr of Bullseye. Since we're only talking a couple of grains difference in weight, you should be able to drop the OAL and still be safe...maybe drop to 4.0gr and see how that works. R,

[G-ManBart]

Lyman third edition has the Bullseye with 3.3MIN to 3.9MAX. With a 125GR lead bullet. May want to double check your load data with a few more sources.

Lyman states in their notes that the loads they show with the Speer 125gr LRN bullet do not operate at max pressure. I misspoke, it was Speer that stated that, but the charges they listed are nearly identical (3.5 to 3.8gr). They limited the loads to 1000fps or less to prevent excess leading. R,

Edited January 2, 2011 by G-ManBart

[Action Pistolero]

I don't believe that you have an OAL problem. I believe it's the crimp. I had this problem recently as I haven't loaded 9mm for a long time. I load 9x23 and one would think that there wouldn't be much of a difference. The problem is with the crimp. I would bet that after you resize the case it will fit in the chamber just fine. The problem that I found was that I was crimping too much and actually bulging the base of the case.

Back off on the crimp until it gets rid of the bell and try barrel dropping. If that fits try crimping between .001 and .002".

[Bevenue]

Lyman third edition has the Bullseye with 3.3MIN to 3.9MAX. With a 125GR lead bullet. May want to double check your load data with a few more sources.

Lyman states in their notes that the loads they show with the Speer 125gr LRN bullet do not operate at max pressure. They limited the loads to 1000fps or less to prevent excess leading. R,

I don't see the note. Im useing this book.

the min 3.3, of bullseye, is running at 1011 and max of 3.9, of bullseye, is running at 1130 fps.

If the load is backed off to prevent leading, my bad. Just saw it was over max in my book and was bringing it to the op attention.

[anachronism]

You are taper crimping your loads, and doing it as a separate step from bullet seating aren't you?

[GOF]

+1. If factory loads are dropping in and out of the barrel and your reloads aren't, it's not a powder issue. It's a crimp or OAL issue. As far as OAL goes, a simple step is to ignore calipers and just take a factory round that you know runs reliably in your gun... set your seating die to that load's OAL... use a smooth, but not overly heavy taper crimp... and go from there.

GOF

[G-ManBart]

I don't see the note. Im useing this book.

the min 3.3, of bullseye, is running at 1011 and max of 3.9, of bullseye, is running at 1130 fps.

If the load is backed off to prevent leading, my bad. Just saw it was over max in my book and was bringing it to the op attention.

I misspoke, it's the Speer book that says they limit the velocity to 1,000fps to prevent leading with the Speer 125gr LRN. They use 1.130" and 3.5gr Min, 3.8gr Max, 962fps at max from a 4" barrel....so the Min/Max charges are similar. I see they only run that max load up to 31,400 CUP, where they take others to 33,000...that might be the difference in higher charges with similar weight bullets. R,

[G-ManBart]

+1. If factory loads are dropping in and out of the barrel and your reloads aren't, it's not a powder issue. It's a crimp or OAL issue. As far as OAL goes, a simple step is to ignore calipers and just take a factory round that you know runs reliably in your gun... set your seating die to that load's OAL... use a smooth, but not overly heavy taper crimp... and go from there.

GOF

That may not work. Take a look at the profile of that Berry's 124gr hollow point....it's very long, and has the ogive way forward....sort of a strange shape really. It's more of a truncated cone. When seated to the lengths as a standard FMJ, it may make contact with the rifling. Just one more reason for me to hate Berry's bullets

[rhyrlik]

My problem with 9mm reloads.

I started by using the data in my Speer 14 manual. Made a batch of 50.

That's too many when you're working up loads. Try 10 next time.

Since I didn't own a 9mm pistol at the time, I tried them in my friends Glock and they worked perfect. Based on this I loaded up a large batch of reloads.

9mm chambers vary all over the place. CZ has the shortest throats. Beretta has the longest, I think.

I recently purchased a Springfield Armory XDm 9mm 3.8 Compact. Went off to the range with my reloads and the rounds failed to go completely in battery (admonishes self for failure to barrel check reloads in MY pistol). My reloads pass my Dillon case gage with no issues. Sizing die is set properly for full length resizing.

The reloads were:

Berry's 124gr plated HP

COAL: 1.123" (manual states 1.120-1.169)

Bullseye: 4.2gr (also have 231 and American Select available for use)

Cases: mixed headstamps

Crimp: .3765"

When I returned home, I barrel checked my reloads and barrel checked with commerical loads of 115gr. The commercial loads dropped into the barrel with the expected "kerplunk" and fell right out. My reloads fell into the barrel but did not enter as far as the commercial rounds. This has led me to the conclusion that my reloads need a shorter OAL due to bullet profile, hence my dilema. Shortening the OAL will put me below the minumum OAL of the manual.

Does your manual talk about Berry's 124gr HP?

This takes me out of my comfort zone since I have never done that and I do not know how to adjust the powder charge appropriately. I have been told that plated bullets should be loaded using lead bullet data but I cannot find any specific lead loading data. I did find jacketed loads in an old Sierra reloading manual that showed the 124gr with an OAL of 1.080-1.090, well below my current manual. I have not had the chance to play with my reloads to determine what the final OAL needs to be to work in my pistol so I cannot tell you the new number. As a side note, the 115gr commercial loads I shot were also below the minimum stated in my reloading manual at 1.125 (manual states the min for RN is 1.135).

Can anyone point me to where I can obtain proper load data for when I reduce the OAL below the manual's minimum or how to properly calculate a load range when reducing OAL?

Quick Load

I guess I could avoid the headache and just give my reloads to my friend since they work in his Glock and start over with some new MG's but I really would like to further my reloading knowledge and learn how to do this properly and safely.

First, your barrel chamber check test was correct. Find an OAL that drops into your chamber without jamming the bullet into the rifling. Then locate data using your bullet, or a similar one (124gr HP) at the OAL you plan on using. If you start at the min and work your way up, your gun won't explode no matter what reasonable OAL you try. 9mm's can take some tremendous pressures and the nice thing about them is the case expands in proportion to pressure. If factory stuff expands to .391" in your chamber, make sure your handloads don't exceed that figure. In my gun, +P+ expands to .394" while standard pressure stuff stays inside of .391". While this is a crude way of guestimating pressure, it is reliable. I ran a test once where I reloaded the same 9mm case to failure while documenting case stretching and case body expansion. I expected the case to shrink and to expand less due to work hardening. After 30 reloads, the case stretched .003" and maintained the same degree of expansion as new. So much for work hardening and brittleness.

[GOF]

G-Man,

Sorry you hate Berry's bullets. I've never used them, so I have no comment. As far as setting the seating dies to the same length as a proven factory load in the same bullet weight, it has worked for me for the 40+ years I have been reloading simple practice/plinking loads, and also worked well for the loads I have used in sanctioned IDPA and USPSA matches. Of course, YMMV. As for the velocity of lead bullets in 9mm, every loading manual limits them to less than 1000 fps in order to prevent leading. That's due to the fact that Hornady and Speer sell swaged lead bullets, and they will lead above 1000 fps. Really hardcast bullets can be driven a bit faster, but then they don't sell those bullets.

GOF

Edited January 2, 2011 by GOF

[G-ManBart]

G-Man,

Sorry you hate Berry's bullets. I've never used them, so I have no comment. As far as setting the seating dies to the same length as a proven factory load in the same bullet weight, it has worked for me for the 40+ years I have been reloading simple practice/plinking loads, and also worked well for the loads I have used in sanctioned IDPA and USPSA matches. Of course, YMMV. As for the velocity of lead bullets in 9mm, every loading manual limits them to less than 1000 fps in order to prevent leading. That's due to the fact that Hornady and Speer sell swaged lead bullets, and they will lead above 1000 fps. Really hardcast bullets can be driven a bit faster, but then they don't sell those bullets.

GOF

The comment about Berry's was really meant as a joke...that's all. Usually you can use the same length as a factory load, but it won't always work when the bullet profile is vastly different, like that particular Berry's bullet.

Lyman lists over 60 9mm loads with cast bullets that are over 1000fps (up to 1455fps), RCBS has quite a few, Hodgdon shows both 115s and 125s at well over 1000fps, Accurate shows several well over 1000fps...as do Alliant, Win and VV. R,

[CocoBolo]

There are a lot of wizbang tools for outrageous amounts of money that let you measure head space. I just take a deprimed and belled case lube it with a little clp and then stuff a bullet into it longer than I know the gun will take then put it in the crimp station and crimp it just enough to remove the bell. Then I put it in the barrel and press it all the way in. Take it out and measure it. Shorten it by .005 then drop check it in the barrel slowly feeling for any resistance. If it hits then shorten it another .005. Once I think it fits I make 5 dummies that size and cycle them thru the gun slow and fast if the cycle well then I load up 20 or so and go to the range and test them. One caveaut is they must fit in the mags.

I'm not a fan of pated bullets I have shot them and if you devote enough care loading them they shoot ok, but I'd rather shoot moly coated lead and prefer a good jacketed bullet, like Zero or Montana gold.

[constable79]

First, I would like to thank everyone that replied with good info.

First off, get more manuals

SAAMI minimum OAL is 1.000". Speer may have used a minimum of 1.125", but that's actually slightly on the long side, and some bullets won't work at that length. If you drop one of your reloads in the chamber, and push it in a bit, does it leave a mark on the bullet? In other words, are you sure it's contact with the bullet that is stopping it from chambering completely?

Lyman shows a 121gr lead bullet at 1.110" with a max of 4.4gr of Bullseye. They also show a different 121gr lead bullet at 1.065" and a max of 4.2gr of Bullseye. Since we're only talking a couple of grains difference in weight, you should be able to drop the OAL and still be safe...maybe drop to 4.0gr and see how that works. R,

Bart, for my education, where can I find the SAAMI minimum OALs like you quoted?

I do have 3 manuals (Speer, Sierra, and Lyman). Two of them are old so recommendation noted.

I don't believe that you have an OAL problem. I believe it's the crimp. I had this problem recently as I haven't loaded 9mm for a long time. I load 9x23 and one would think that there wouldn't be much of a difference. The problem is with the crimp. I would bet that after you resize the case it will fit in the chamber just fine. The problem that I found was that I was crimping too much and actually bulging the base of the case.

Back off on the crimp until it gets rid of the bell and try barrel dropping. If that fits try crimping between .001 and .002".

I believe that the crimp is fine and as most have stated, it's the OAL with this particular bullet. My crimp is at .3765 (.0005 from removing the bell) and cases are not buldged.

You are taper crimping your loads, and doing it as a separate step from bullet seating aren't you?

Yes I am using a taper crimp and it is a separate operation from seating.

+1. If factory loads are dropping in and out of the barrel and your reloads aren't, it's not a powder issue. It's a crimp or OAL issue. As far as OAL goes, a simple step is to ignore calipers and just take a factory round that you know runs reliably in your gun... set your seating die to that load's OAL... use a smooth, but not overly heavy taper crimp... and go from there.

GOF

+1. If factory loads are dropping in and out of the barrel and your reloads aren't, it's not a powder issue. It's a crimp or OAL issue. As far as OAL goes, a simple step is to ignore calipers and just take a factory round that you know runs reliably in your gun... set your seating die to that load's OAL... use a smooth, but not overly heavy taper crimp... and go from there.

GOF

That may not work. Take a look at the profile of that Berry's 124gr hollow point....it's very long, and has the ogive way forward....sort of a strange shape really. It's more of a truncated cone. When seated to the lengths as a standard FMJ, it may make contact with the rifling. Just one more reason for me to hate Berry's bullets

I agree, its OAL. My reloads are at 1.123 and the commercial load I shot was 1.125. As Bart states, the issue appears to be the weird profile of the Berry's bullet and I will need to reduce the OAL and adjust the powder charge. I have used Berry's in my .45, .40 and .357 without any issue. After these reloads, I will be using MG's with a normal profile and will not have this issue. I will continue using Berry's for other calibers but will not use the Berry's HP in 9mm.

Again, thanks to everyone for all the help .

[G-ManBart]

First, I would like to thank everyone that replied with good info.

First off, get more manuals

SAAMI minimum OAL is 1.000". Speer may have used a minimum of 1.125", but that's actually slightly on the long side, and some bullets won't work at that length. If you drop one of your reloads in the chamber, and push it in a bit, does it leave a mark on the bullet? In other words, are you sure it's contact with the bullet that is stopping it from chambering completely?

Lyman shows a 121gr lead bullet at 1.110" with a max of 4.4gr of Bullseye. They also show a different 121gr lead bullet at 1.065" and a max of 4.2gr of Bullseye. Since we're only talking a couple of grains difference in weight, you should be able to drop the OAL and still be safe...maybe drop to 4.0gr and see how that works. R,

Bart, for my education, where can I find the SAAMI minimum OALs like you quoted?

I do have 3 manuals (Speer, Sierra, and Lyman). Two of them are old so recommendation noted.

Some manuals list the SAAMI specs, and I found them on one of the Loadbooks pages. Surprisingly, Wikipedia actually has a lot of the SAAMI data posted for most popular cartridges. R,

[constable79]

I would like to thank everyone again for their insight and help. To close this off, I wanted to provide a quick update.

This issue was the OAL as many suggested. After adjusting the reloads for my barrel, the OAL that will work with my gun and this extremely long Berry's bullet is 1.030 (Bart I'm with you, I will never use this Berry's bullet again).

I have attached a picture so those unfamiliar with the Berry's can see it. The left cartridge is the commerical load I shot (115gr) the middle cartridge is my original reload at 1.123 and the two right cartridges are my new reloads at 1.030.

Again, thank you very much all.

[constable79]

This time with picture.

[98sr20ve]

This time with picture.

Those pictures don't jive with my brain properly. The one on the left looks like a typical 1.169 FMJ load. The ones in the middle are loaded way, way to long. The one on the right looks ok I guess. Are you sure your calipers are right?

[G-ManBart]

This time with picture.

Those pictures don't jive with my brain properly. The one on the left looks like a typical 1.169 FMJ load. The ones in the middle are loaded way, way to long. The one on the right looks ok I guess. Are you sure your calipers are right?

That Berry's bullet (in the center and right pics) has a really weird profile, with the angle/ogive starting way forward of what you normally see. I think that's why they were hitting the rifling at "normal" lengths. R,

[Action Pistolero]

What's the saying? A picture is worth a thousand words. This thread wouldn't have 21 posts if that picture had just had the factory round and your round in your original post.

Another lesson learned. Just because it fits in the mag doesn't mean it will chamber.