How many hits for slug?

[james h]

I understand the rationale behind two hits per paper from handguns but why also from shotguns?

Given that two hits are nescessary but only mean2*170=340 from Hguns :when one slug is 520pf at least are two really needed?

This may seem an odd topic but personally i think that shotgun stages tend to have to high a round count (medium and long courses) simply because they can have up to 32 rds and 28 targets.

I know shotgun is mostly on steel but the principles still apply , anyone shot a 28 rd all steel pistol stage at L3 or higher?.

At WSX111 the most targets on any stage was 19 (with most being no more than 10 targets) and that i think was 32 rounds with poppers activating the bonus targets.

what happens is those that can load faster win the high round count stages making manual dexterity more important than shooting ability (if it is will we include knitting ? ) and so detracts from the aim of the sport.

I know there will be dissenters saying yes but loading is part of it , all i am saying is that it plays too great a part and that the number of targets when using all steel stages should be reduced to even it out between those who can load and those who can shoot.

(the same goes for all paper slug stages: 2 per target is not realistic)

sincerely hoping Neil reads this after the match

james

[Vince Pinto]

James,

I'll let my colleague Neil give you a right royal spanking for your impertinence

In the meantime though, I'm one of those who believe that reloading a shotgun requires far greater skill than reloading a handgun, and it should form a prominent part of the shotgun challenge, but I also see validity in your argument that shotgun stages do not need to follow the typical handgun "2 shots per paper target".

However I think the challenge is having large enough shooting bays which can actually accommodate, say, a 32 round shotgun course with 32 targets, and I think this is easier said than done.

[rhino]

For what it's worth, in our last 3-gun club match, we specified that slugs counted as two of whatever they hit. So one slug hit in the A,B,C,D zones was scored as two of each. At the same time, no shoot hits were also scored as two, as were complete misses.

No one complained and it made a lot of sense to me and the rest of the match crew. It worked nicely and made a course with lots of paper targets more of a shooting contest and less of a reloading contest.

[Jim Norman]

In the meantime though, I'm one of those who believe that reloading a shotgun requires far greater skill than reloading a handgun, and it should form a prominent part of the shotgun challenge, but I also see validity in your argument that shotgun stages do not need to follow the typical handgun "2 shots per paper target".

However I think the challenge is having large enough shooting bays which can actually accommodate, say, a 32 round shotgun course with 32 targets, and I think this is easier said than done.

As well as accomodating a 32 target course of fire, think about the recovery time shot to shot of two slugs on a paper target! Shotgun is to a great extent a loaders game, alsthough if there is just enough space between targets and just enough corners to turn and ports or doors to go thru, that will reduce some of the advantage.

Again, hit a popper at 40 yards with one slug and try and get two more on a disappearing drop-turner at 25 yards for a real challange!

Jim Norman

[Neil Beverley]

James! You rascal!

I'm going to have to work my way through this one in steps.

I understand the rationale behind two hits per paper from handguns but why also from shotguns?

Shotgun Rule Book: 9.5.1 Unless otherwise specified in the written stage briefing, scoring paper targets must be shot with a minimum of one round each, with the best hit to score in the case of slug ammunition or with the best two hits to score in the case of buckshot ammunition, i.e. the two highest scoring strikes of any pellets from any buckshot rounds fired.

Please note that this rule is written to recognise that 1 hit, and therefore only 1 shot, is necessary for slug stages. It is written to be the default value but does not preclude a match organiser specifying 2 hits/shots to count.

For buckshot the rule is written to create a situation of 1 shot but 2 hits as the default "recommendation". Note that for 2 hits we count the 2 highest scoring pellets on the target.

If we consider your comments about the PFs then the single slug hit is correct but arguably the 2 hits from buckshot is under. On the other hand you've got to draw the line somewhere and I certainly don't see us sensibly ever scoring say 9 hits (pellets) from 00 buck. If not 9 then how many? 2 hits are widely used elsewhere in IPSC so it makes sense to follow suit. If we scored more than 2 hits, and bearing in mind that this is achieved from a single shot, then we attribute too much weighting to a buckhot stage. And think of the distortion if it's a mixed paper and metal target stage and then we scored all hits. Paper target scores 45 points (9 x 5) and the metal target just 5 points (target falls).

It is my belief that the rule establishes the appropriate balance. Bearing in mind my comments above, good course design, as always, is very important. Paper targets should be used and placed with care to avoid unreasonable distortions to the stage results.

At WSX111 the most targets on any stage was 19 (with most being no more than 10 targets) and that i think was 32 rounds with poppers activating the bonus targets.

Such is shotgun! Unless we double tap paper targets with slug, which should not be the default (as discussed above), then we are left with single shots per target. And I for one see no point in creating 18 holes in a paper target by double tapping with 00 buck.

I'm not keen on backing off on the number of targets permitted in a SG Long Course and nobody forces a match organiser to put on stages with 28 targets. 17 targets qualify as a long course. The choice is there to be had.

What happens is those that can load faster win the high round count stages making manual dexterity more important than shooting ability and so detracts from the aim of the sport.

Loading is very much a significant part of the sport. For some it's virtually an art form. Witness the many discussions elsewhere on the BE Forums. Too me it's still an integral part of gun handling and a very real test of skill with a gun. To some (who don't like loading) it's plays too big a part. To others it makes the sport. To the wise (???? arguably! ) it means more time with hands on the gun and less time with the gun idly standing in a rack waiting a turn.

It's curious isn't it? We constantly strive to spend the least amount of time possible doing the sport we love. The longer we actually participitate (at a match) the worse it is. Go figure.

I know there will be dissenters saying yes but loading is part of it , all i am saying is that it plays too great a part and that the number of targets when using all steel stages should be reduced to even it out between those who can load and those who can shoot.

(the same goes for all paper slug stages: 2 per target is not realistic)

James, I think I've covered the 2 hits per target issue so it just remains for me to suggest that this isn't about those who can load fast and those who can't. This is ultimately about the sport of IPSC Shotgun. A discipline which requires skill. That skill is about all aspects of gun handling and the challenge is the same for everyone.

I hope the above helps.

[kurtm]

I have always felt that a single slug hit was sufficient, C or better, the same way .308 should be a single hit....BUT if the paper target depicts a Bear, perhpse it shoud be a quintet of slugs By the way James if it's just plain speed you qwest after, I'm your man. If it's speed reloading, well, I'm your man again KURTM

[benny hill]

O, buy the way kurt baby, next week at mesa, I'll be your huckelberry

[kurtm]

Benny:

It's the button that has SHIFT printed on it. THATS WHAT MAKES THE LETTERS BIG!! Since you chickened out and are shooting an optic, you will have to settle for being a blueberry.....except for shotgun.... then you can be a Huckleberry!!!KURTM

[james h]

Thank you all for your input ,

but i wish some of you would read what i wrote: nowhere did i ask for a 32 rd 32 target stage.....quite the opposite in fact!

Neil gets the points for the best answer though.

The point i was getting at(among other things) is the big stages sometimes make up 1/4 of the points on their own , so one broken gas ring and your f******. Perhaps when the course designers guidebook is published ( ) there will be something about no stage being worth more than 15% of the total match points.

cheers

j

[Vince Pinto]

James,

My apologies for misunderstanding you. Actually I recall we used to have an "unofficial" rule along the lines you suggest, but we could easily add a "should" recommendation rider to Rule 1.2.1.4 in the next rulebook as follows:

1.2.1.4 The recommended balance for an IPSC match is a ratio of 3 Short Courses to 2 Medium Courses to 1 Long Course. Where possible, it is further recommended that no single COF in a match represent more than X% of the total match points available.

Would this make you smile?

[james h]

Smile ?

ok as you wish

but i forsee problems going down that route. such as small matches where 3 short 2 med 1 long =420 pts total but the long course is still 1/3rd of the match.

still it would be good to recomend such a thing for L3 and higher although its normally accademic as L4 etc usually have at least 1200pts (i think)

thank you all

i was only fishing for opinions

j

btw; how about this for a futher test of skill at arms:

start blinfolded with a disassembled gun ,barrel in weak hand receiver in strong