2011 USPSA MultiGun Nationals

[slavic09]

Hi -

This was my first MG Nationals and my first 3 Gun match with hit factor scoring. I had a great time and really enjoyed the stages, even though our squad had a number of reshoots.

I've been to SMM3G, Ironman, RM3G and a few regional matches. Part of what makes this sport fun for me is that each match is unique in its own way. SMM3G is quick, technical, has great props and a lot of danger. Ironman is, well, The Great Ironman. RM3G tests every part of your game in an unparalleled setting. Based on my one run at MG Nationals it also seemed quick and technical but placed an emphasis on accuracy, which sets up well for me. I dug it and will plan to come back.

My only input on the rules is this: if a flying clay launches broken, just have the shooter put a round into the pieces. If two plates fall off the Texas star, have the shooter burn one more round in the vicinity. If the shooter gets a popper and a clay with one birdshot round, again, just burn another round and keep moving. These things cannot be planned, don't provide that much of advantage when they do happen and should not be cause for a reshoot. Save that for props that don't activate!

Thanks very much to everyone involved in planning, organizing, designing, hosting, building, ROing, fixing, sponsoring, bean counting or otherwise supporting the match. As a competitor, I appreciate your effots.

Vic

[chendersby]

Hi -

This was my first MG Nationals and my first 3 Gun match with hit factor scoring. I had a great time and really enjoyed the stages, even though our squad had a number of reshoots.

I've been to SMM3G, Ironman, RM3G and a few regional matches. Part of what makes this sport fun for me is that each match is unique in its own way. SMM3G is quick, technical, has great props and a lot of danger. Ironman is, well, The Great Ironman. RM3G tests every part of your game in an unparalleled setting. Based on my one run at MG Nationals it also seemed quick and technical but placed an emphasis on accuracy, which sets up well for me. I dug it and will plan to come back.

My only input on the rules is this: if a flying clay launches broken, just have the shooter put a round into the pieces. If two plates fall off the Texas star, have the shooter burn one more round in the vicinity. If the shooter gets a popper and a clay with one birdshot round, again, just burn another round and keep moving. These things cannot be planned, don't provide that much of advantage when they do happen and should not be cause for a reshoot. Save that for props that don't activate!

Thanks very much to everyone involved in planning, organizing, designing, hosting, building, ROing, fixing, sponsoring, bean counting or otherwise supporting the match. As a competitor, I appreciate your effots.

Vic

So Vic are you saying that you don't mind the possibility that you could be beaten on a stage because someone got lucky and extra plates fell off or a couple birds came up broken, as long as the match keeps moving? This is a Nation Championship not a local club shoot. That being said, if I was design a Nationals I would not use flippers at all. They are not consistant enough to provide the same shot to all competitors. I'm not a big fan of stars either.

Edited October 30, 2011 by chendersby

[chendersby]

What is this "free open" thing?

A few of us on Squad 4 (Me, JJ, and the Spokane Seans) were thinking about doing a chant during the awards and even have some t-shirts made to try and get USPSA Open to be more like outlaw Open, more freedom to inovate hence the "Free Open Now" slogan. They all bugged out on the awards due to it being at the Rivera, so I decided not to chant alone but I wanted to start it here to get some pressure going. If people are interested in the t-shirsts I'd be happy to get something going, PM me and I'll see it there are enough to make an order.

Doug

Hey! Don't include me in your s* stirring!

I'll take one of those Tshirts thou, it will be a collector's item when the rule is finally changed oh, say, 8 years from now. (Just an estimate based on past performance)

.jj

I will trade you unlimited rounds in open for tactical being able to use cinched mags prone.

[Jesse Tischauser]

Hi -

This was my first MG Nationals and my first 3 Gun match with hit factor scoring. I had a great time and really enjoyed the stages, even though our squad had a number of reshoots.

I've been to SMM3G, Ironman, RM3G and a few regional matches. Part of what makes this sport fun for me is that each match is unique in its own way. SMM3G is quick, technical, has great props and a lot of danger. Ironman is, well, The Great Ironman. RM3G tests every part of your game in an unparalleled setting. Based on my one run at MG Nationals it also seemed quick and technical but placed an emphasis on accuracy, which sets up well for me. I dug it and will plan to come back.

My only input on the rules is this: if a flying clay launches broken, just have the shooter put a round into the pieces. If two plates fall off the Texas star, have the shooter burn one more round in the vicinity. If the shooter gets a popper and a clay with one birdshot round, again, just burn another round and keep moving. These things cannot be planned, don't provide that much of advantage when they do happen and should not be cause for a reshoot. Save that for props that don't activate!

Thanks very much to everyone involved in planning, organizing, designing, hosting, building, ROing, fixing, sponsoring, bean counting or otherwise supporting the match. As a competitor, I appreciate your effots.

Vic

So Vic are you saying that you don't mind the possibility that you could be beaten on a stage because someone got lucky and extra plates fell off or a couple birds came up broken, as long as the match keeps moving? This is a Nation Championship not a local club shoot. That being said, if I was design a Nationals I would not use flippers at all. They are not consistant enough to provide the same shot to all competitors. I'm not a big fan of stars either.

I wouldn't mind removing one reshoot in place of one shooter getting an extra plate or a broken clay. It's immaterial in the big scheme of things that can and do go wrong in a Multi gun match.

What is this "free open" thing?

A few of us on Squad 4 (Me, JJ, and the Spokane Seans) were thinking about doing a chant during the awards and even have some t-shirts made to try and get USPSA Open to be more like outlaw Open, more freedom to inovate hence the "Free Open Now" slogan. They all bugged out on the awards due to it being at the Rivera, so I decided not to chant alone but I wanted to start it here to get some pressure going. If people are interested in the t-shirsts I'd be happy to get something going, PM me and I'll see it there are enough to make an order.

Doug

Hey! Don't include me in your s* stirring!

I'll take one of those Tshirts thou, it will be a collector's item when the rule is finally changed oh, say, 8 years from now. (Just an estimate based on past performance)

.jj

I will trade you unlimited rounds in open for tactical being able to use cinched mags prone.

Oh The irony!!! Good point.

[Chuck Anderson]

I had a couple more questions about my observations at my first Multi Gun Nationals...

Why were there so many home made sponsor banners? Did the sponsors not send their own or is making a banner or three part of the sponsor package?

Why did some of the stages that contained a shotgun require a dedicated RO to oversee the shotguns that were alreaded preloaded? It seemed a bit over the top since every other match that I've been to has the shooters preload together then everybody knows not to go touch the shotguns no more unless under direct supervising. It's bit like the guns are actually hot either. They just have a tube full with empty chamber and safety on. Just curious if it's a liability thing or what?

Which Sponsor banners were you talking about Jesse? I don't recall seeing any homemade ones. USPSA will make banners at certain sponsor commitment levels. These were the basic banners that had the sponsor name and something like Gold or Bronze sponsor at the bottom. They're basic, but certainly not homemade. Sponsors could also supply their own banners to be put up. Safariland definitely did this. I remember on one stage the RO was saying something about stopping at the Safariland banner before going downrange. From where I was standing I could see 11 Safariland banners on the stage, basically one on every piece of wall.

[Chuck Anderson]

Earlier in this thread it was brought up that Horner won by a huge margin in 2010 because he was shooting major rifle. I said that he won by a large margin because Taran wasn't shooting in Tactical.

Place Name USPSA Comp # Class PF Lady Mil Law Age Match Pts Match %

1 Daniel Horner A48668 86 M Major 2278.6299 100.00%

2 Taran Butler L2354 209 GM Major 2232.8133 97.99%

3 Tyler Payne A63708 146 A Major 2037.9829 89.44%

4 Rob Romero TY54465 158 M Major 1971.2779 86.51%

If you take away Taran's score, Horner won by 10.56%.

I read that Horner shot minor rifle this year.

So, at least at the top, major rifle scoring does not make a big difference.

I checked with Stats, Daniel was shooting major rifle. The other three in the AMU, Halsey, Payne and Sweeney all went minor with their rifles. Stats ran the results again with Horner scored minor on the rifle just to see, and the first change in placement came at 27th place. The margin of victory was a lot closer, 99.6 for second place instead of 97.99, but Horner still would have won.

[slavic09]

Hi -

This was my first MG Nationals and my first 3 Gun match with hit factor scoring. I had a great time and really enjoyed the stages, even though our squad had a number of reshoots.

I've been to SMM3G, Ironman, RM3G and a few regional matches. Part of what makes this sport fun for me is that each match is unique in its own way. SMM3G is quick, technical, has great props and a lot of danger. Ironman is, well, The Great Ironman. RM3G tests every part of your game in an unparalleled setting. Based on my one run at MG Nationals it also seemed quick and technical but placed an emphasis on accuracy, which sets up well for me. I dug it and will plan to come back.

My only input on the rules is this: if a flying clay launches broken, just have the shooter put a round into the pieces. If two plates fall off the Texas star, have the shooter burn one more round in the vicinity. If the shooter gets a popper and a clay with one birdshot round, again, just burn another round and keep moving. These things cannot be planned, don't provide that much of advantage when they do happen and should not be cause for a reshoot. Save that for props that don't activate!

Thanks very much to everyone involved in planning, organizing, designing, hosting, building, ROing, fixing, sponsoring, bean counting or otherwise supporting the match. As a competitor, I appreciate your effots.

Vic

So Vic are you saying that you don't mind the possibility that you could be beaten on a stage because someone got lucky and extra plates fell off or a couple birds came up broken, as long as the match keeps moving? This is a Nation Championship not a local club shoot. That being said, if I was design a Nationals I would not use flippers at all. They are not consistant enough to provide the same shot to all competitors. I'm not a big fan of stars either.

There are a multitude of reasons why I may be beaten on a stage, and if someone benefits from a broken flipper or an extra plate falling off I don't think it's that much of an advantage if that shooter is required to burn an extra round as described. Trying to make everything identical for each shooter is a bit of a fool's errand anyway - there will always be wind, rain, the position of the sun and a hundred other variables that could benefit some and disadvantage others. It's part of the sport, and I believe that in the long run it evens out.

[kurtm]

The stages were great. I found most of the R.O.s went out of their way to accomidate those of us that usually shoot "the other matches". There were some slow downs as stage design got way carried away with stuff that drops, wig wags, turns etc. which makes for slow re-set....but it also made for FUN stages. Most fo the re-shoots on our squad were target failure with several "tape" problems. As to the tape problems with many parts of the stage not visible to the rest of the stage, it was easy to forget to tape or figure someone on "that side" had done it. Hey shooters get tired too. This was a great match and was truely National level. Great job to all involved!

As to flipping and flying clays, they are great fun to shoot, but they never should be in a major match. How in the world can we expect something that gets 30# of weight dropped on it from 42" for each shooter to be consistent? and in clay sports, where it is shot for big money and prizes they have several line judges that the only thing they do is stare at the clay, not hold a timer, make sure the shooter is safe, watch for foot faults...etc AND have to call a clay. Also we now have a target that can't be arbitrated cause it breaks on the ground that was worth 20 points. I saw several targets with hits and chips called as a miss because the R.O. was at a bad angle to see the bird. No fault of the R.O. but clays "GOTAGO"

[Jesse Tischauser]

I had a couple more questions about my observations at my first Multi Gun Nationals...

Why were there so many home made sponsor banners? Did the sponsors not send their own or is making a banner or three part of the sponsor package?

Why did some of the stages that contained a shotgun require a dedicated RO to oversee the shotguns that were alreaded preloaded? It seemed a bit over the top since every other match that I've been to has the shooters preload together then everybody knows not to go touch the shotguns no more unless under direct supervising. It's bit like the guns are actually hot either. They just have a tube full with empty chamber and safety on. Just curious if it's a liability thing or what?

Which Sponsor banners were you talking about Jesse? I don't recall seeing any homemade ones. USPSA will make banners at certain sponsor commitment levels. These were the basic banners that had the sponsor name and something like Gold or Bronze sponsor at the bottom. They're basic, but certainly not homemade. Sponsors could also supply their own banners to be put up. Safariland definitely did this. I remember on one stage the RO was saying something about stopping at the Safariland banner before going downrange. From where I was standing I could see 11 Safariland banners on the stage, basically one on every piece of wall.

Im sorry by saying homemade I meant the generic looking ones with the gold and bronze sponsor written on them. I was thinking that it must have cost the match/USPSA a bunch of money to make all those rather than have the sponsor send their own. I was thinking it was expensive and a waste of resources for the shotgun guard as well.

Is their really a written procedure for sponsors?

Speaking of a waste of time and resources, that chrono stage cost competitors between $300 and $1000 in ammo and how many hours and two more RO's? Is it really necessary when none of the other outlaw matches run a chrono?

[MarkCO]

Speaking of a waste of time and resources, that chrono stage cost competitors between $300 and $1000 in ammo and how many hours and two more RO's? Is it really necessary when none of the other outlaw matches run a chrono?

None of the other matches enforce major-minor in Heavy, and most shoot minor in TS at outlaw matches.

[MarkCO]

As to flipping and flying clays, they are great fun to shoot, but they never should be in a major match. How in the world can we expect something that gets 30# of weight dropped on it from 42" for each shooter to be consistent? and in clay sports, where it is shot for big money and prizes they have several line judges that the only thing they do is stare at the clay, not hold a timer, make sure the shooter is safe, watch for foot faults...etc AND have to call a clay. Also we now have a target that can't be arbitrated cause it breaks on the ground that was worth 20 points. I saw several targets with hits and chips called as a miss because the R.O. was at a bad angle to see the bird. No fault of the R.O. but clays "GOTAGO"

Agree 100%. If the RO missed (he is after supposed to be watching the gun primarily) a chip on a target that can not be verified, that is not good, especially when each one was 4 As in the air.

[Religious Shooter]

Making a thrown clay 4A's makes it worth the same as a stationary clay.

Hitting a stationary clay is worth 5 points. If you don't hit a stationary clay you are penalized a mike (10 pts). If you don't engage a stationary clay you are penalized an FTE. A stationary clay is actually worth 4A's => 20 pts.

If you don't engage a thrown clay, you don't get penalized with an FTE. If you miss a thrown clay it's a no penalty mike. So at amost a thrown clay is worth 4A's => 20 pts. The same as a non-moving stationary clay.

You take away all of the thrown clays and the texas stars and you will have a less fun and challenging match.

[MarkCO]

But stationary clays can be examined by the RO and shooter, flipped and thrown clays can not. That makes them different.

[kurtm]

I can go to a stationary clay and LOOK at it to determine if it is "broke" or not. Remeber 1 pellet is a break and many a shooter is releived when they see the "golden bb hole" in a clay that didn't shatter...now Relig...show me that same "golden bb" in that flipping clay that hit the ground...oh yeah you can't can you, but it is still for score. As long as you can say I don't mind not getting the score I deserved and earned I will agree with you, but at a National level match I think you would want what you earned or else the end is worthless, but you might feel differently and like the fact that you get what you don't earn. KurtM

[Religious Shooter]

Because of that you want to get rid of the target from all of the major 3 gun matches? So no thrown clays in RM3G? No thrown clays in SMM3G? No thrown clays in Ironman? No thrown clays in the Nationals?

[Religious Shooter]

I can go to a stationary clay and LOOK at it to determine if it is "broke" or not. Remeber 1 pellet is a break and many a shooter is releived when they see the "golden bb hole" in a clay that didn't shatter...now Relig...show me that same "golden bb" in that flipping clay that hit the ground...oh yeah you can't can you, but it is still for score. As long as you can say I don't mind not getting the score I deserved and earned I will agree with you, but at a National level match I think you would want what you earned or else the end is worthless, but you might feel differently and like the fact that you get what you don't earn. KurtM

Whenever there was thrown clays the main RO and the score keeper had their eyes on it. The # excludes all the squad members also looking at the clays. I'm good with that number.

All the other matches that allow you to shoot at a downed clay or downed steel, in your view in those other matches the shooters didn't earn their scores? Only in the Nationals is where you actually get what you earned? Give me a break.

Are you actually saying that all the other matches are wrong and they should be doing what USPSA is doing and stop a shooter if a clay/steel gets blown down?

You wan't those same 200-300 reshoots to take place in RM3G, SMM3G, BRMG, etc?

Edited October 30, 2011 by Religious Shooter

[MarkCO]

In USPSA, the primary RO has the primary job of watching the GUN, the secondary of watching for foot faults and then target engagement. That is probably not going to change, nor would I want it to. Where was the third RO? In most cases back at the tent watching shotguns that are not being touched, or organizing scoresheets or watching guys walking back to their cars. There is room for improvement. I for one am anxious and optimistic about what the committee working on the new rules will bring about. I've been running matches using USPSA rules with a secondary purpose of seeing what works and does not so I can provide feedback to that group. Some of that is done, more to come.

FWIW, thanks to Chris, Chuck and Mike and whoever else is working on that new ruleset. Like my mom used to tell me growing up, "Don't let the turkeys get you down, cus they drown in the rain."

[Religious Shooter]

On Stage 1 and 11 the main RO's had their eyes on the clay.

The main RO stopped me on stage 1 because she didn't see the second clay pop up. The scorekeeper RO did see it pop up and me breaking it. My squadmates also saw the same thing. But I had already been stopped.

But if I hadn't been stopped, I'm confident that the right call would have been made.

[RiggerJJ]

Clays;

MUST break to score. that is break into at least 2 visible pieces. static or flying. simple easy fix, used by our brethern that shoot clay games and know a LOT more about it than we do. The notion that a single BB hole is a hit or broken clay is beyond me...never heard of it before I started shooting 3gun, I guess it is an IPSC thing? What makes that right???

walk around downrange at a clays range and look at the many targets laying on the ground (that didn't get broken by hitting the ground) that have a single BB hole in them. I will step out on a limb and say the shooter was NOT given the hit on any of those targets. There is no reason for us to not do the same in 3 gun. The only target you can inspect after the fact is a static target, which should be EASY to hit compared to a flying or flipped. Just break the damn thing and press on. They have one scorekeeper designated to watch for hit/missed targets, its not that hard folks...

At the Nationals, how many shooters got credit for a static clay that fell off the stand because the shot pattern hit the stand? I saw LOTS of full, unhit clays laying on the ground after the shooter went by and they were given the hit...What was that all about? Should that have been range failure too? (RESHOOT!!!)

S.S.S.

jj

Edited October 30, 2011 by RiggerJJ

[MarkCO]

So wrong on so many levels JJ. First, that is not what the rulebook says. Second, simple laws of physics seems to have been missed in your observations. While there are "chipped" clays from hitting the ground, there are not golden BB hit clays on the trap, skeet and SC fields. A spun clay breaks due to one BB, a flipped one does not. I also doubt you ever attended any tournament level clay sports event or you would know you are wrong about how many scorers there are as well.

[Chuck Anderson]

Im sorry by saying homemade I meant the generic looking ones with the gold and bronze sponsor written on them. I was thinking that it must have cost the match/USPSA a bunch of money to make all those rather than have the sponsor send their own. I was thinking it was expensive and a waste of resources for the shotgun guard as well.

Is their really a written procedure for sponsors?

Speaking of a waste of time and resources, that chrono stage cost competitors between $300 and $1000 in ammo and how many hours and two more RO's? Is it really necessary when none of the other outlaw matches run a chrono?

Yes there is a written policy so that the sponsors know what they are getting when they sign up and we make sure we deliver.

As far as the chrono, that's a really interesting statement considering the role it played this year. There would very likely have been a different Heavy Optics National Champion if not for the chrono. Two other competitors, at least, in ST also went minor. I think there were probably several other people who did as well. Running a Time Plus match there really isn't a need for a chrono, except for HM maybe. But for a HF scored match there certainly is. Without the chrono, Matt Sweeney would probably be a National Champion and the guy who shot equipment that was compliant with the division would have been left in second. I know Matt didn't intentionally go minor, or even try to get that close to the edge but the bottom line is without the chrono, we would have crowned a National champ who shot Minor in HM.

[Chuck Anderson]

Clays;

MUST break to score. that is break into at least 2 visible pieces. static or flying. simple easy fix, used by our brethern that shoot clay games and know a LOT more about it than we do. The notion that a single BB hole is a hit or broken clay is beyond me...never heard of it before I started shooting 3gun, I guess it is an IPSC thing? What makes that right???

walk around downrange at a clays range and look at the many targets laying on the ground (that didn't get broken by hitting the ground) that have a single BB hole in them. I will step out on a limb and say the shooter was NOT given the hit on any of those targets. There is no reason for us to not do the same in 3 gun. The only target you can inspect after the fact is a static target, which should be EASY to hit compared to a flying or flipped. Just break the damn thing and press on. They have one scorekeeper designated to watch for hit/missed targets, its not that hard folks...

At the Nationals, how many shooters got credit for a static clay that fell off the stand because the shot pattern hit the stand? I saw LOTS of full, unhit clays laying on the ground after the shooter went by and they were given the hit...What was that all about? Should that have been range failure too? (RESHOOT!!!)

S.S.S.

jj

OK, so what is the Golden BB. Did it somehow pass through the clay without breaking a piece off? That is two separate pieces. My eyes are normally good enough to see the visible piece. Are you really saying we should somehow interpret the rule to mean that the clay must have a piece at least "x" size break off? Say one square inch? It's interpretations like this that make some people actually want a rulebook that is more widespread than a single MD.

[Bryan 45]

Chuck, who got bumped from Heavy Optics?

[Chuck Anderson]

Matt Sweeney with the AMU. Ended up getting bumped to Open.

[Jesse Tischauser]

Im sorry by saying homemade I meant the generic looking ones with the gold and bronze sponsor written on them. I was thinking that it must have cost the match/USPSA a bunch of money to make all those rather than have the sponsor send their own. I was thinking it was expensive and a waste of resources for the shotgun guard as well.

Is their really a written procedure for sponsors?

Speaking of a waste of time and resources, that chrono stage cost competitors between $300 and $1000 in ammo and how many hours and two more RO's? Is it really necessary when none of the other outlaw matches run a chrono?

Yes there is a written policy so that the sponsors know what they are getting when they sign up and we make sure we deliver.

As far as the chrono, that's a really interesting statement considering the role it played this year. There would very likely have been a different Heavy Optics National Champion if not for the chrono. Two other competitors, at least, in ST also went minor. I think there were probably several other people who did as well. Running a Time Plus match there really isn't a need for a chrono, except for HM maybe. But for a HF scored match there certainly is. Without the chrono, Matt Sweeney would probably be a National Champion and the guy who shot equipment that was compliant with the division would have been left in second. I know Matt didn't intentionally go minor, or even try to get that close to the edge but the bottom line is without the chrono, we would have crowned a National champ who shot Minor in HM.

Sorry I guess I should said hit factor scoring causes the chrono which causes a huge waste of time and money!!!

Matt Sweeney from the AMU went minor on the rifle and was bumped to open.

My factor ammo from Walmart barely made major out if a Glock 35. Averaged 165.5. If u can barely make major with ammo off the shelf something is really wrong.

Edited October 31, 2011 by Jesse Tischauser