Postal match times

[Ahab]

According to the MD, you're not allowed to reload as you cross the gap past the already engaged targets, because you're not "behind cover" even though you've already engaged those targets. That leads me to the discussion on "what is cover", because my understanding of the rulebook would indicate that you don't need to seek cover from engaged targets. But that's a topic for another thread...

[Gregg K]

After watching your video I do not see why you received a procedural.

What did you do wrong?

Stage 4 had 2 reloading procedurals. The first would be for initiating the first reload before reaching cover and the second reload would receive another procedural for not compleating the reload before crossing an opening.

[steel1212]

After watching your video I do not see why you received a procedural.

What did you do wrong?

Stage 4 had 2 reloading procedurals. The first would be for initiating the first reload before reaching cover and the second reload would receive another procedural for not compleating the reload before crossing an opening.

MY Md would concur.

[Ahab]

I was only assessed one PE, the second for not completing the reload before crossing an opening. This has led to the discussion in this post on Gun Nuts about the definition of cover and whether or not we should seek cover from engaged targets or not.

The first PE for initiating a reload before cover wasn't assessed, because the two revo guys specifically asked the MD if we could initiate our reload while retreating since our guns were empty.

[steel1212]

See when I shot revo I was told that even though I was empty I couldn't start the reload until I was behind cover.

[Ahab]

Which sort of perfectly illustrates the discussion in the other thread and why I think IDPA needs to clarify whether or not you need to seek cover from engaged targets.

[steel1212]

Absolutely

[EmanP]

Read the rulebook guys, bottom of page 42. It's very specific and leaves no room for question.

"NOTE: Reloads may only begin when the shooter is fully behind

cover and will be deemed completed when the fresh magazine is

seated and the slide is fully forward or the cylinder is closed. (See

Appendix THREE – Cover)"

[EmanP]

And page 44.

"All reloads must be executed from cover (if cover is available) and

must be completed before leaving cover. A shooter is deemed

loaded and may move from a position of cover ONLY when the

fresh magazine is FULLY SEATED and the slide is fully forward

or revolver cylinder is closed. Shooters may not move from one

position of cover to another with an empty gun. Reloads must be

completed from cover, however this does not mean that a shooter

must duck back completely behind cover to reload before

reengaging targets from a stationary firing point. The contestant

may keep his eyes on his next “opponent” as long as he follows the

definition of cover and does not expose too much of his body to

the next threat target."

[steel1212]

Yeah I can read the rule book it just doesn't make since. Me revo is empty but I can't recharge it until I'm behind a barrel. That leaves me in the open with out ammo in my gun to defend myself.

I guess this is another topic for discussion since this thread was created to post postal match times.

[EmanP]

Wouldn't be the first time in IDPA. But rules are rules and they make the game. Our job is to follow them as fast as we can.

[Ahab]

EmanP, I actually quoted that segment of the rulebook in my original post on this. The issue is that "cover" isn't clearly defined. Per the rulebook, I can reload while more than 50% exposed to a target I've just shot at if my slidelock reload happens in the middle of an array (which happens a lot on 12 and 18 round COFs). So part of the rulebook would indicate that you do not need to seek cover from an engaged target, but other parts of the rulebook would. Hence the discussion on what truly defines "cover".

[EmanP]

Page 43 "Once behind cover, a competitor may move behind cover

while reloading. If a competitor shoots to slide lock with targets

still remaining to be engaged from a specific firing point, the

competitor does NOT have to duck behind cover while reloading,

if you are using cover adequately while firing it will also be

adequate cover while reloading."

From a specific firing point. That is, if the COF says that these targets must be engaged from a specific position, and that position is out in the open, then you would have to reload from that position. Granted, that also doesn't make sense but who are we to argue. It's just best not to question these things. It'll only lead to a headache.

Page 44 "Reloads must be

completed from cover, however this does not mean that a shooter

must duck back completely behind cover to reload before

reengaging targets from a stationary firing point."

[EmanP]

Oh, and cover is defined in Appendix 3, that's what 3 is all about

"More than 50% of the shooter’s upper torso must be behind cover

while engaging threat targets and/or reloading. For low cover, one

knee must be on the ground and for vertical cover such as a

wall/barricade, 100% of the shooter’s legs and feet must be behind

cover."

The positions for cover are writen out in the stage descriptions.

[Strick]

ESR-MA: 62 and change. I had a procedural and got bodybagged on the square drill. I'm going to shoot it again in SSR and I'm willing to be I'll shave 10 seconds.

After watching your video I do not see why you received a procedural.

What did you do wrong?

He started his first reload before he was at cover, that is a 3 second bonus.

[steel1212]

Oh, and cover is defined in Appendix 3, that's what 3 is all about

"More than 50% of the shooter's upper torso must be behind cover

while engaging threat targets and/or reloading. For low cover, one

knee must be on the ground and for vertical cover such as a

wall/barricade, 100% of the shooter's legs and feet must be behind

cover."

The positions for cover are writen out in the stage descriptions.

Since we are going to continue to derail this thread.

So tell me then, why can't I reload a empty gun on a stage like the ally stage on the postal match if I was shooting a revolver. on the start, I've emptied my gun by neutralizing all threats. If I've neutralized all threats then there is no threats. At that time there are no threats I'm in a ally way with cover from any threats that "may or may not" be there.

[EmanP]

Because the rulebook states that if there is cover available, you must use it to reload. In that stage there is cover available to the left and to the right so that is where the reload must take place. Even if those targets weren't there at all, it is not behind cover and so you can not reload there. Has nothing to do with whether the targets were engaged or not. I wish the rulebook was better worded too, but it says what it says and we have to go with it. Welcome to IDPA.

Edited December 27, 2010 by EmanP

[5early]

From a specific firing point. That is, if the COF says that these targets must be engaged from a specific position, and that position is out in the open, then you would have to reload from that position. Granted, that also doesn't make sense but who are we to argue. It's just best not to question these things. It'll only lead to a headache.

Page 44 "Reloads must be

completed from cover, however this does not mean that a shooter

must duck back completely behind cover to reload before

reengaging targets from a stationary firing point."

It doesn't say these positions are in the open. In fact is says you are using cover.

If you are working around the right side of a wall and shoot two targets right to left, slide lock on the third, you just don't have to worry about being exposed to the two on the right you've already engaged. So why would you have to worry about the two in front of you in this cof after you've engaged them?

Keith

[steel1212]

Because the rulebook states that if there is cover available, you must use it to reload. In that stage there is cover available to the left and to the right so that is where the reload must take place. Even if those targets weren't there at all, it is not behind cover and so you can not reload there. Has nothing to do with whether the targets were engaged or not. I wish the rulebook was better worded too, but it says what it says and we have to go with it. Welcome to IDPA.

I know its IDPA and I know we play by that set of rules, I'm not arguing that at all. As far as that stage is concerned if those first two targets aren't there you ARE behind cover as there are no targets visible anywhere correct?

[EmanP]

How can you be behing cover if you are out in the open? Cover is defined as something that 'cover's' 50% of your upper torso. If you're out in the open, there is nothing to do that. The walls in the layout of the stage are the only things that can do that so that is why they are cover.

[5early]

So the hallway walls are not cover but the walls at the end of the hall are? Do they not block 100% of your body from the threat targets remaining?

Sorry to be part of the derailing.

Keith

Edited December 27, 2010 by 5early

[steel1212]

So the hallway walls are not cover but the walls at the end of the hall are? Do they not block your body from the threat targets remaining?

http://www.youtube.com/user/springfield1911guy?feature=mhum#p/u/2/75LDgbDwE0s at 13 seconds. I've got walls on either side of me. Now I can't remember the stage COF may have said that those walls where only vision barriers but I thought the stage was called alleyway something or another.

[Ahab]

EmanP, that's the point - cover is poorly defined. Let's look at a hypothetical stage. You start at P1 with no targets in front of you. There is a wall 20 feet downrange at a 45 degree angle from the start position. All targets are on the other side of the wall, you can't see them from where you start. Are you "behind cover"? I would say yes, because 100% of my body is hidden from the targets regardless of the actual distance to the barrier object.

So on the postal match stage, once I engage the first targets, I'm 100% behind cover from any remaining targets. I'm not "in the open" except with respect to the targets that have already been engaged.

[CHARLES D]

Not to get away from the topic, but there is a big discussion about the rule on WWW.IDPAFORUM.COM Very interesting thoughts on different peoples interpatation about the Cover Rule.

[5early]

http://www.youtube.com/user/springfield1911guy?feature=mhum#p/u/2/75LDgbDwE0s at 13 seconds. I've got walls on either side of me. Now I can't remember the stage COF may have said that those walls where only vision barriers but I thought the stage was called alleyway something or another.

Perfect example. How do you guys see this. It looks perfectly legal to me. He is reloading behind cover from the remaining threats.

Keith