rhino Posted February 22, 2004 Share Posted February 22, 2004 During the first IDPA match of the year yesterday, I repeated my tendency to attempt unorthodox reload techniques. My career in this regard began a few years ago when I tried to reload my AR with a 12 gauge shell. Needless to say, it did not work, yet I could not understand why at the time. Anyway ... yesterday I was trying to do an IDPA-style "tactical reload" because I was about to come around a corner with guns a'blazin'. Instead of just grabbing a magazine from my belt, I reached into my jacket pocket and pulled my Barney mag with a couple of rounds in it. I knew fairly quickly what I'd done, but for some reason I just stood there looking at it and wondering why I did it. Eventually I put it back in my pocket (instead of just dropping it) and went for the proper magazine on my belt. I finally got the fresh mag into the gun, but instead of dropping the spent mag in my jacket pocket, I tried to jam it into my waistband (Mr. Sunshine-style! ), but I missed. Twice. Then, instead of dropping it in my jacket pocket, I once again found myself doing something slower. I tried to jam it into the front pocket of my pants. Okay, it only took two tries to get that done. I have no idea how long that little Keystone Cop routine took, but it was pretty funny afterward. I think I know why I did it too ... when I'm at the range just plinking, I tend to keep my magazines in my jacket pocket. That makes sense when I'm shooting my .22, but it's not a good habit to carry over to IDPA or even worse, USPSA/IPSC, or even worse than that, "real life." I am replete with doofosity! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SiG Lady Posted February 22, 2004 Share Posted February 22, 2004 Might I recommend Michael Bane's scathing little article in HANDGUNS (p. 64) this month about 'tactical reloads'......... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Larry Cazes Posted February 22, 2004 Share Posted February 22, 2004 Looks like it was One Of Those Days where nothing goes right! I think in 'real life' you would just drop it on the ground and jam a full one in as quickly as possible! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rhino Posted February 23, 2004 Author Share Posted February 23, 2004 Might I recommend Michael Bane's scathing little article in HANDGUNS (p. 64) this month about 'tactical reloads'......... You don't need to get me started on that subject! I think it's a little silly to do an ADMINISTRATIVE RELOAD under the conditions usually required in an IDPA match (or the defensive scenarios they're attempting to simulate). The thing is, they have rules and you have to live with them or take the penalties. I wanted to have enough rounds to engage the targets after I turned the corner because I knew it would take more time if I ran dry in the middle and had to reload during a transition or in between shots on a target since I'd have to move back to where I had been (behind "cover"). So that's why I did it. In another game (i.e. USPSA), I would have done the reload when I was turning the corner! It's too bad my squad couldn't see what I was doing, because I'm sure it was entertaining! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rhino Posted February 23, 2004 Author Share Posted February 23, 2004 Looks like it was One Of Those Days where nothing goes right! I think in 'real life' you would just drop it on the ground and jam a full one in as quickly as possible! I hope you're right! Real life "tense social encounters" are no time to entertain the troops with silly mistakes! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted February 23, 2004 Share Posted February 23, 2004 Rhino, If it makes you feel better...Mr. ToughLove, Dale T. (who shot the steel match with us in Dec. over in Indy), and I all failed to negotiate a reload along with going thru a door in the USPSA match we shot today. Luckily, we all got to screw it up again when we reshot the match. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rhino Posted February 23, 2004 Author Share Posted February 23, 2004 If it makes you feel better...Mr. ToughLove, Dale T. (who shot the steel match with us in Dec. over in Indy), and I all failed to negotiate a reload along with going thru a door in the USPSA match we shot today. Why is it that match screwups seem contagious sometimes? At Silver Creek for "Berm Aid" (April 2003), I was in a squad with gunruner and a few other people shooting 1911-based guns. We were shooting the last stage of the day where you started with your pistol on a spool in front of you, which you retrieved after pushing over two poppers with your hands. The poppers activated two drop turners and two swingers. Gunruner shot first, but forgot to deactivate his thumb safety after he retrieved his pistola. Afterward, he cautioned me not to do the same thing. In the meantime, three other people in the squad did the exact same thing, and it was obvious when they either flinched and nothing happened or they just stood there trying to press a trigger that wasn't going to move. Armed with the experience of others, I knew I would have no trouble. Yet, I was concerned about getting hits on those drop turners and I knew I probably couldn't hit them. So I pushed the poppers over, grabbed my gun, and engaged the drop turners. They just sort of stared at me in space for what seemed like a long, long, long time. I had plenty of time to get two hits on both (at least point shooting), but I couldn't understand why a) they were starting to disappear without any holes in them and I hadn't heard or felt my gun fire yet. Then I realized I was standing there pressing on the trigger with my thumb just barely resting on the thumb safety. The drop turners were gone and although I got two As on both of the swingers, the time was unacceptable even for me! So the same darn thing happened to at least five people in my squad, and no warning or adviced did any good for some of us. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garfield Posted February 23, 2004 Share Posted February 23, 2004 Rhino, your stories are highly appreciated, they always make a great start of my day !!! Start dropping those .22 magazines during practice I'd say ... At least your pants staid on and kept their structural integrity Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rhino Posted February 24, 2004 Author Share Posted February 24, 2004 Amen, brother! Coincidentally, I finished mending those same trousers this morning and wore them today. I am proud to say that the repairs held and there were no "incidents" on the range. I also made sure to do all of my reloads from my mag pouches today. Whew! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garfield Posted February 24, 2004 Share Posted February 24, 2004 I also made sure to do all of my reloads from my mag pouches today. Whew! That must have been an amazing experience ! ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rhino Posted February 24, 2004 Author Share Posted February 24, 2004 It was certainly different! And curious, it made my reloads much faster. I made a conscious decision (and even said so to BigDave) as I was loading my mags that I would reload the gun only from a mag pouch. I still had my jacket pocket full of magazines, but I would go to the pouch and only use the mags in my pocket afterward to refill my pouches. I'm still having trouble with flipping the gun to reach the mag release, though. Sometimes it doesn't go far enough and I am not able to press the button enough to allow the magazine to drop. I may try to recondition myself to go back to hitting the button with my weak hand as I go for the spare mag, at least for speed reloads. In the past, it was always better for me because 1) I always got the button pressed all the way, and 2) keeping my grip on the gun was much faster for me than flipping and trying to regrip. I'll still have to flip when I need to do "tactical reloads" in IDPA, though. But it's an entirely different (and slower) skill the way I do it. I'm also going to get extended magwells fitted to my single stacker! Without it, I feel like I'm trying to thread a needle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve H Posted February 28, 2004 Share Posted February 28, 2004 My boss and I have been throwing this around lately. As a police firearms instructor, we are mandated by the state to teach our folks the "tactical reload". Does anyone know of any of the following: 1. Has anyone every been involved in a shooting where they did a tactical reload during a "lul" in the gunfight? 2. Has anyone ever been involved in a shooting where they did a tactical reload and had to fire at the bad guy after doing so? 3. Has anyone ever been involved in a shooting and performed a tactical reload and had to fire at the bad guy during the tactical reload? 4. Has anyone ever been involved in a shooting and had to resort to the mag that they stowed away to save their life? I truly want to find out if anyone knows of any of this has every occurred. I have not found any thing in my short research. Thanks, Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rhino Posted February 28, 2004 Author Share Posted February 28, 2004 I've never even heard of anyone having to do one in a personal defense situation, either police or private citizen. I suspect it has happened in military combat, though. And I can think of some situations where doing a reload with retention would have been of great benefit, such as the tragic debacle in Somalia in 1993. I've been told that the Rangers were trained to just drop their mag and speed reload no matter what, and could have used a "tactical reload" at times, especially when the ammunition was running low. But then that is combat with teams and larger groups for prolonged periods. That's highly unlikely for someone on their own facing down some bad guys! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve H Posted February 28, 2004 Share Posted February 28, 2004 Rhino, thanks for the reply, I had a buddy go to a carbine class at Gunsite and there was a Navy Seal in the class, when they covered the tac reload, it was new to him. He said they either do a speed reload or a slide/bolt open reload. I have on good info, that the D guys in the Army never train with a tac reload. I know of NO tac reload in a LE shooting. I would like to hear about one. Steve H Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rhino Posted February 28, 2004 Author Share Posted February 28, 2004 Last summer when I was in a Louis Awerbuck rifle class, he was teaching us how to do tactical reloads with 30rd magazines in our ARs. He made sure to stress that when you need to reload fast, you shouldn't waste your time with it, but that it was a good skill to have in your bag of tricks just in case. He cited the Rangers in Somalia in 1993 as an example and how they'd never been taught a tac reload or reload with retention, but that now some of them are learning them just for those sorts of situations. I can actually do a tac reload with my AR almost as fast as I can do a speed reload. That of course says that I am slow on the "speed" reload more than that I am fast with the other. I think the key is that the technique for doing the tac reload (where you make an "L" with the fresh mag against the mag in the gun) helps me index the fresh mag easier, so I get it into the hole with less chance of missing. It certainly works nicely for an administrative reload, which is the primary purpose after all. I'm repeating the rifle class this summer. I'm a remedial student! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Dunn Posted February 28, 2004 Share Posted February 28, 2004 Michael Bane had an article in Handguns (I think it was that mag anyway), about tac loads and the inner monkey. Great read. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tightloop Posted March 2, 2004 Share Posted March 2, 2004 John What is the inner monkey? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rhino Posted March 2, 2004 Author Share Posted March 2, 2004 I believe that is a euphemism for one's more primal, instinctive "self" and behaviors. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tightloop Posted March 2, 2004 Share Posted March 2, 2004 Rhino If you display them all the time like I do, does it become the Outter monkey or just normal behavior? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SiG Lady Posted March 2, 2004 Share Posted March 2, 2004 (see my post Feb. 22) He makes a valid point, though... about not trying to do any fancy-footwork-of-the-hands during a REAL lethal encounter and end up dead. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MstngLX50 Posted March 22, 2004 Share Posted March 22, 2004 I did a tactical reload of my 16 in Iraq during an ambush. It should be noted however that I was behind a 10 foot berm and the rest of my squad was still engaging, not exactly one on one at the qwik-e-mart. In addition to the fact that they preach magazine retention, my primary reason for putting the mag in a drop pouch was the fact that it was one of my personal orlites from home so it actually functioned. About a week later while clearing a field of fedayeen forces my rifleman was hit 7 times by a syrian hiding in a hole(he fully recovered point blank body armor saved his life) with an ak. During this exchange I was closest and emptied two magazines into the hole(it would have been less but a man with some 25 little holes from my SS109's was still returning fire) while doc took care of the wounded. Not only did I not retain those mags, when the first one stuck in the mag well I removed it with sufficient force to send it 20 yards into a stream. I don't think thats exactly what you're looking for, but I feel that both types have their place and as with everything else "situation will ditate". Alan Elam LCpl/USMC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rhino Posted March 23, 2004 Author Share Posted March 23, 2004 Hey, Alan! Thanks for the real world anecdote ... And thank you very much for your service to your country! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillD Posted March 30, 2004 Share Posted March 30, 2004 My boss and I have been throwing this around lately. As a police firearms instructor, we are mandated by the state to teach our folks the "tactical reload". Does anyone know of any of the following:1. Has anyone every been involved in a shooting where they did a tactical reload during a "lul" in the gunfight? 2. Has anyone ever been involved in a shooting where they did a tactical reload and had to fire at the bad guy after doing so? 3. Has anyone ever been involved in a shooting and performed a tactical reload and had to fire at the bad guy during the tactical reload? 4. Has anyone ever been involved in a shooting and had to resort to the mag that they stowed away to save their life? I truly want to find out if anyone knows of any of this has every occurred. I have not found any thing in my short research. Thanks, Steve How many non LEO or non military shootings have required even a reload, never mind what kind? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tightloop Posted April 1, 2004 Share Posted April 1, 2004 The whole thing is moot... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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