Big Butt IDPA legal?

[BobD]

Greetings all !

Just wanted to check if anyone knows if the Hogue Big Butt grips are IDPA legal in ESR.

Per the IDPA rules:

"3. Grips to another style or material that is similar to factory

configuration (no weighted grips). "

Not sure where the line is drawn on "similar". I shoot them on a N-frame 625.

I have fairly large paws. The bottom of the grips extend about 1/2 inch below the

bottom of my strong hand, and the bottom of my weak hand is flush with the

bottom of the grip, so it's not like there's a lot of extra hanging out there.

I tried the search function, but couldn't find anything relevant. Thanks in advance for any help.

Bob

[Steve Koski]

http://www.getgrip.com/main/overview/Big_Butt.htm

Those are pretty wild. I'm betting no.

[Merlin Orr]

Reminds me of Carmoney's magwell for a single stack.

I think Steve has the correct answer/guess....

[Team Amish 1]

If you have large paws, the exposed backstrap may still position your hand and the trigger finger too close to the trigger. Have you taken a look at the X-frame grips? I also took at those "Nightguard" grips at a gunshow today and find then very hand-filling.

[BobD]

Team Amish,

Yeah, I have a set of the rubber Hogue X-frames, as well as the rubber Pachmayrs that come on the Nightguard.

The X's work pretty well, but I like the extra length of the Big Butts because of the extra purchase it gives my support hand.

As you said, the trigger reach is a little close, but I take the trade off in order to be able to get a really high grip on the backstrap.

My original question was really not a "What grips should I use", just whether or not there had been any known decision from "on-high" in IDPA

as to the use of the Hogue BB. I'll be competing at the CA State Championship Match in October, so I guess I'll bring them,

along with a regular set of Hogue's and see what gets said. Worse case scenario, I swap them out prior to the match and just shoot the standard Hogue's.

Thanks for the responses.

Bob

[Steve J]

They're not exactly suitable for every day concealed carry. That is a real equipment criterion.

[Duane Thomas]

Big Butt grips do not look anything similar to factory grips, so I don't think we need a clarification from on high to understand the answer is "No." A good acid test when you have a question like this is to ask yourself, "Would I really have these on a gun I had to carry concealed?"

[Merlin Orr]

Is the width or length of the Big Butt any greater than a 2011 with a modest magwell?

If the grip - off the pistol - will fit into the IDPA box I would (personally) find it hard to say it is not concealable.

[BobD]

Big Butt grips do not look anything similar to factory grips, so I don't think we need a clarification from on high to understand the answer is "No." A good acid test when you have a question like this is to ask yourself, "Would I really have these on a gun I had to carry concealed?"

I don't see a big difference between this, and a large magwell equipped 9mm single stack semi-auto, with the magwell cut to fit "in the box".

As to it's suitability for concealed carry......it still can tuck in tight against the body, perfectly concealable. The catalog pics are a little deceiving.

Could I carry it concealed? Yeah. Would I? Maybe not.

Just so you don't think I'm talking out my a$$ here, I do have some concealed carry experience (25 years as an officer with a metropolitan P.D.)

But, I won't debate that issue with you, since questioning anything IDPA rule related seems to be verboten. Forget I asked....won't happen again.

[BobD]

Is the width or length of the Big Butt any greater than a 2011 with a modest magwell?

If the grip - off the pistol - will fit into the IDPA box I would (personally) find it hard to say it is not concealable.

Merlin,

Thanks. I agree. That was my thought process in asking the question. Didn't see your post till after I posted my reply.

Nice to hear a voice of reason.

Bob

[EkuJustice]

Kind of agree with merlin. Look at the 1911 XT magwells in particular. How many people do you think have those on a carry gun?

[Merlin Orr]

I am not trying to really make a case that a big honking magwell (like my Legal box fitting SVI 1911 magwell or my SVI 2011 magwell) is "reasonable" for a carry gun. But we have a criteria for establishing the point where a gun is too wide to be considered as "reasonable" and that is the IDPA Box.

Revolvers do not have to meet this as the cylinders are to wide... but if the butt is not bigger than what will fit the box it is hard for me to make a case that they are any less concealable than the autos with magwells that are of the same dimensions.

[Strick]

There are also parts that could be added to semi auto's that will still allow it to fit int he box that are deemed illegal since they are competition only parts. Can't use tungsten guide rods or brass plugs for example.

I would think that this grip falls into that category.

[Steve J]

I believe the origin of those big butt grips is for prone shooting in PPC and Bianchi Cup. They elevate the pistol precisely so you can brace it on the ground. They also make semi-auto base pads that do the same thing. They are specialized for that purpose and are therefore "competition only" and not even for our competition.

[Steve J]

http://www.getgrip.c...ew/Big_Butt.htm

Those are pretty wild. I'm betting no.

Read the product description. Exactly what I said in the post above. Competiton only (not even for our competition). Illegal.

Big Butt grips are designed for serious competitors who shoot in a prone position. Many shooting matches such as the Bianchi Cup and International Revolver championships include stages that are best shot from the prone position. Hogue Big Butt grips allow the revolver to be firmly planted on the ground for maximum stability and increased accuracy shot after shot.

[BobD]

I believe the origin of those big butt grips is for prone shooting in PPC and Bianchi Cup. They elevate the pistol precisely so you can brace it on the ground. They also make semi-auto base pads that do the same thing. They are specialized for that purpose and are therefore "competition only" and not even for our competition.

Ummmm...."competition only"? You mean like extended magwells, beavertail grip safeties, and extended thumb safeties were when THEY first came out?

Yes, I remember waaaaay back then!

[Steve J]

I believe the origin of those big butt grips is for prone shooting in PPC and Bianchi Cup. They elevate the pistol precisely so you can brace it on the ground. They also make semi-auto base pads that do the same thing. They are specialized for that purpose and are therefore "competition only" and not even for our competition.

Ummmm...."competition only"? You mean like extended magwells, beavertail grip safeties, and extended thumb safeties were when THEY first came out?

Yes, I remember waaaaay back then!

All concealable. All suitable for every day carry. The oversized funnels not so much. Ugly too.

[Duane Thomas]

Ummmm...."competition only"? You mean like extended magwells, beavertail grip safeties, and extended thumb safeties were when THEY first came out?

30 or 40 years ago, yes, competition only. Today....not so much. And all legal per the IDPA Rule Book. Even back in the day, serious and knowledgeable pistoleros were having their carry 1911s modified to incorporate such parts.

The history of the evolution of pistol design, especially so with the the 1911, is that parts originally designed for competition have made it into an overall more ergonomic weapon, and thus have migrated onto factory production guns to the point it's difficult to find any 1911 these days, that's not a retro-gun, that doesn't feature, for instance, an extended thumb safety and beavertail grip safety. It's just a better mousetrap. Would anyone like to take bets on almost any revolver you find down at your local gun shop 40 years from now featuring a Big Butt grip? Making the gun larger, just to make the gun larger with a specific competition-only purpose in mind, is the way of PPC, not the way of IDPA, and it such things as this that the equipment rules are specifically set up to prevent.

[mike4045]

Saw a shooter running them at the Labor Day IDPA match. They were ruled legal. Don't see much difference from the big magwell 1911. I didn't think they would be legal, but they were allowed.

Edited September 20, 2010 by mike4045

[Glock3422]

You know the interesting part of this is that you are discussing a gun that does not need to fit the box and has BIG maximum weight limit.

I don't understand the rules to require any limits on everyday carry or concealability for revos, since they seem to get a pass on the box and "normal/typical" weight limits.

I do understand that the rules are "may I" rather than "you may not."

Regarding anything in the "Enhanced or Custom" realm, the question should be weight and fitting the box. If revos don't need to fix the box, and especially if you are shooting ESR, the black letter rules should prevail. Intent is just too vague.

If I am carrying, I intend to be able to neutralize every target I engage. Can you see it before I draw it? If you can, maybe I will not have to draw it. I have actually used this in real life. You don't have to draw it or handle it to expose it.

On the other hand; the recent rule "clarifications" would make enhanced concealment illegal. We might need offical formula gear. That would reduce the gray area, but add to the cost. Ooops, violation of prime directive.

The notion of approaching these discussions from your personal perspective dismisses anyone who would approach the problem from their personal prospective. That is, you may have a fundamental belief that you have interpreted the tablets as written. Others may differ.

To be clear, you may believe that a 1911 single stack is THE ONLY proper defensive handgun.

I may believe that a G-20 is THE ONLY proper defensive handgun.

We have two methods of solving the problem. Neither is wrong. You can't have it both ways.

You can not argue that a 1911 solves a problem better than a big ass revo, or a double stack bottom feeder.

To try is just dishonest.

YMMV

[Gregg K]

I asked Robert Ray from IDPA HQ the question and he went to the web site and looked at them and said they looked to be OK for IDPA use to him. He did say that if they were more than 2 oz heavier than a stock option that they would be considered a weighted grip and not legal. My Big Butt grips are actually lighter than a factory set that I have so they are NOT a weighted grip and as such legal.

[Duane Thomas]

Well then, IDPA HQ has spoken. Question answered. That ends that discussion.

Closed.