I'm guessing no... revolvers modifications in production

[westczek]

Not that I have any plans of signing up for anything other than revolver at a USPSA match, but...

I was wondering if after market conversion of cylinders to accept moonclips would be a violation of production division rules. It isn't really an external modification, is it? And of course some factory S&W 686s have come already cut for moons.

Just wondering I know some here have used thier S&W 627s and I was not sure if all of those were factory cut. If I ever need to use my seven shot it might be good to go production, instead of facing an intra-match switch to open division. On the other hand I could always use more practice on my counting.

Westczek

[Carmoney]

No way to know for sure without an official ruling from NROI, but I would not expect that to be considered an external modification, and furthermore I can't imagine anybody complaining about somebody tilting against windmills in Production with a revolver anyway.

Virtually all 627 8-shots are factory cut for moonclips--the sole exception is the 4" standard barrel version that came out a couple years ago, and those are only rarely encountered.

Just keep in mind you can't list Production as a back-up plan in case you accidentally slip and fire a 7th shot. You'll go straight to Open, whether your gun satisfies Production equipment rules or not. That's just the way it works.

Best solution? Run a 6-round revo for USPSA/IPSC, ideally one that can make major power factor with reasonable comfort.

[westczek]

Yes, the plan was to go production from the start and not have to worry about the seventh shot. I shoot a six-shooter in minor for revolver division. This was more hypothetical and more for the rare occasion I may want to go that route.

I haven't shot with speed loaders and only have two at the moment, and no way to carry them. Although it is probably a skill I should at least familiarize myself with... someday.

Westczek

[centermass]

Just keep in mind you can't list Production as a back-up plan in case you accidentally slip and fire a 7th shot. You'll go straight to Open, whether your gun satisfies Production equipment rules or not. That's just the way it works.

We have a new shooter with a 7-shot revolver hoping to shoot our match this Sunday. Where in the rule book does it state that firing the 7th shot moves the shooter to Open? Appendix D6 mentions only a mandatory reload after the 6th shot. The old rule book also had a condition for any shot over 6 was a procedural per shot fired, but that apparently no longer exists.

[Carmoney]

6.2.5.1 However, if a competitor fails to satisfy the equipment or other

requirements of a declared Division during a course of fire, the

competitor will be placed in Open Division, if available, otherwise

the competitor will shoot the match for no score.

Any other questions?

[centermass]

6.2.5.1 However, if a competitor fails to satisfy the equipment or other

requirements of a declared Division during a course of fire, the

competitor will be placed in Open Division, if available, otherwise

the competitor will shoot the match for no score.

Any other questions?

Thank you very much, I obviously glossed right over that information late last night.

[westczek]

Centermass,

If the shooter is new to revolver division, or new to USPSA, steer them to production. Although I think everyone should try revo division at least once with a larger than 6 shot capacity revolver, it shouldn't be anyones first time. Worrying about the 7th shot is a drag and seeing his or her scores in production should be better than open division.

Westczek

PS -- I have one "Open" division classifier score to prove it...

[centermass]

Centermass,

If the shooter is new to revolver division, or new to USPSA, steer them to production. Although I think everyone should try revo division at least once with a larger than 6 shot capacity revolver, it shouldn't be anyones first time. Worrying about the 7th shot is a drag and seeing his or her scores in production should be better than open division.

Westczek

PS -- I have one "Open" division classifier score to prove it...

Great idea, thank you. I'll give that a mention if the shooter hasn't competed in USPSA previously. Though wouldn't it be more advantageous to be scored major in limited 6? Can 7 shot moon clips be only loaded with 6 to avoid the bump? And though we don't have "the box" at our local matches, I'm assuming most revolvers wouldn't actually qualify for Production?

Edited July 8, 2011 by centermass

[lynn jones]

6.2.5.1 However, if a competitor fails to satisfy the equipment or other

requirements of a declared Division during a course of fire, the

competitor will be placed in Open Division, if available, otherwise

the competitor will shoot the match for no score.

Any other questions?

Thank you very much, I obviously glossed right over that information late last night.

i think shooting the 7th and 8th shot in a round revolver in "production division" would not put you in the "open division"

[Blueridge]

6.2.5.1 However, if a competitor fails to satisfy the equipment or other

requirements of a declared Division during a course of fire, the

competitor will be placed in Open Division, if available, otherwise

the competitor will shoot the match for no score.

Any other questions?

If you are shooting a revolver in production division then the division is production. Shooting a 7 or 8 shot revolver to it's capacity would not send you into open division. The revolver division restriction on number of shots fired would not apply. Technically (if a revolver had the capacity) you could shoot up to 10 shots in production division and not be placed into open division. I have looked into using a revolver in production, and have not found the restriction to be valid that you post.

A few years ago I even asked the USPSA why Ruger revolvers were not listed for use in production and shortly after they were.

[Carmoney]

In the original post, westczek posed a hypothetical situation in which a competitor in Revolver Division, who is using a 7- or 8-shot gun, accidentally fires more than 6 rounds between reloads. He wondered whether the shooter would then revert to Production Division as long as the gun met Production Division equipment rules.

I responded that in that scenario, the shooter who accidentally fires a 7th shot would be bumped straight to Open. Rule 6.2.5.1 would control in that situation.

Certainly if the gun meets Production rules, and you declare Production in advance, you're fine to fire as many rounds as the gun holds (up to 10, which is the division limit).

OK? Everybody clear?

[oldtrooper]

YES SIR!

[GMM50]

I shot a USPSA classifier match with an 8 shot 627 (38 Super) last weekend. Shot it in Production.

Lots of flat gun competitors said I couldn't shoot more that 6 out of a revolver.

I informed them it wasn't a revolver shooting in the revolver class

it was a revolver shooting in the production class.

They looked confused and walked away.

Edited July 8, 2011 by GMM50

[SDM]

As a production shooter who knows nothing about revolver, how hard is it to keep all the moonclips behind the point of the hip? Those holders look big enough to me that they would be uncomfortable on your side.

[bluenite]

As a production shooter who knows nothing about revolver, how hard is it to keep all the moonclips behind the point of the hip? Those holders look big enough to me that they would be uncomfortable on your side.

SS is the only division with restrictions on equipment placement for revolver.

For SS it is simply not allowed.

Leonard

[Bubber]

As a production shooter who knows nothing about revolver, how hard is it to keep all the moonclips behind the point of the hip? Those holders look big enough to me that they would be uncomfortable on your side.

Reaching for the first or second one may not be bad the third one would be a bit much and as an average auto shooter should be able to reload as fast than a good revolver shooter and it takes three reloads to equal the same rounds as two reloads for the 10 shots, placement just keeps it more or less even. My thoughts anyway

[Carmoney]

YES SIR!

Now that's more like it.

Back to the thread......speedloader and moonclip carriers are now exempt from the ordinary behind-the-hip-bone rule, for shooters using a revolver in Production Division. That changed with the last edition of the rule book.

[westczek]

Bluenite,

Revolvers are exempt from the production rules on ammo carriers. So moonclip holders in the front are ok. Any DAO or DA/SA revolver with a barrel length of up to 8.5" is approved on the production list, so I suppose revolvers are exempt from the box as well.

******

Actually, it's been a while, but my original question was if I was allowed to declare production from the start with a gun that was not cut for moonclips by the factory. My gun was modified in the after market. After reading the rules again, I'm still not sure. However, S&W is selling a nice 5 inch 686 cut for clips from the factory now. But then again, mine wasn't. So figure I would be required to use speed loaders to live up to the letter of the rule.

Westczek

[westczek]

Mike,

You are too fast. I had to go check the rule book again to write my post

Westczek

[SDM]

As a production shooter who knows nothing about revolver, how hard is it to keep all the moonclips behind the point of the hip? Those holders look big enough to me that they would be uncomfortable on your side.

SS is the only division with restrictions on equipment placement for revolver.For SS it is simply not allowed.Leonard

As a production shooter who knows nothing about revolver, how hard is it to keep all the moonclips behind the point of the hip? Those holders look big enough to me that they would be uncomfortable on your side.

Reaching for the first or second one may not be bad the third one would be a bit much and as an average auto shooter should be able to reload as fast than a good revolver shooter and it takes three reloads to equal the same rounds as two reloads for the 10 shots, placement just keeps it more or less even. My thoughts anyway

YES SIR!

Now that's more like it. Back to the thread......speedloader and moonclip carriers are now exempt from the ordinary behind-the-hip-bone rule, for shooters using a revolver in Production Division. That changed with the last edition of the rule book.

Thanks, I wondered how you'd manage that. Now that I think about it, it seems like I remember it, but I never really paid attention.

[Carmoney]

One of the big problems with shooting a wheelgun in Production is that any external modification to the gun, other than those that fit within the listed exceptions, are technically illegal.

Bobbed hammers, Randy hammers, or Carmonized hammers? Not legal for Production.

Extended thumb latch? Nope--that's not legal either.

Now the reality is that probably nobody but us will ever notice, or ever care. And that's partially because at anything other than the lower levels of competition, you're not going to be competitive in Production division with a wheelgun anyway! Yeah OK fine, you can probably beat some of the local schmokels with your 627. Big deal--it's a stunt.

I have always felt it's important to support and participate in REVOLVER DIVISION. It was not many years ago there were rumblings of getting rid of Revo Division in USPSA. Largely through our efforts here on BE, those rumblings have pretty much gone quiet. But we need to keep the participation numbers healthy and growing in Revo. You're not really helping the cause if you're dicking off over in Production or L-10 just for kicks.

Or so it seems to me.

[bluenite]

Shooting production or L-10 with a revolver dose show that there are revolvers that don’t fit into revolver division [but no one seems to care].

For L-10 you need a .40 8 shot and I'm not sure one is made.

I like the IPSC rule of a penalty per shot over 6 as to, you are now in open.

But the gun you speak of was sold set for moon use, so I would think changing the cylinder to a factory one cut for moons is fine, as for cutting one to match the factory ones, that ruling is over my head.

[westczek]

For the record... I shoot revolver division every time even if I'm the only round gun signed up. However, if like me, that one weekend shooting "Open", because my 6-shooter was out of commission, it may have been fun to run in production. I now have a backup 6-shooter, so it is unlikely to happen again. In the case of a potential new revolver shooter who has only a stock 7 or 8-shooter I would say, sign up for production and squad with us revolver shooters. I would rather them have a more positive experience. The scores will be more meaning full than in "Open". Once they are hooked, the 6-shooter will come.

Westczek