Severe leading from 230 gr RN in 625-8

[zhanghengzhi]

My 230 gr RN loads (bullets from Missouri Bullet Company, hardness = Brinell 18) completely fill the grooves in the barrel of my 625-8 with lead, causing keyholing, but my 185 gr LSWC loads (also from Missouri Bullet Company, same hardness) shoot fine. Does anyone have any suggestions for why the 230 gr would lead so severely?

The 230 gr load:

3.7 gr Clays

.470" crimp

1.247" OAL

Averages 770 FPS.

Thanks.

[DWFAN]

whats the 185gr load and velocity?

[CocoBolo]

The first thing I would do is to measure the diameter of the two bullets. If the 230gr is smaller in diameter this could be the culprit.

Next look at the differences in how you are loading it. The bell of the case the same? Crimping are you using the same crimp die witht the same amount of crimp? Same powder?

The biggest culprit is under sized bulltes and the next is not enough bell when loading cutting the coatings, and another form of undersizing the bullet is using a Lee FCD die.

Cleaning is the easy part, copper choreboy wrapped around a brush, cuts it right out then a little JB bore paste on a patch.

Edited August 13, 2010 by CocoBolo

[jONESIE]

I'm not sure why your 230 gr load is leading so badly, your load specifications look pretty normal.

My 625 is somewhat new (about 2000 rounds) and almost every load leads quite a bit. Its bore isn't particularly shiny, even after a through cleaning, which makes me think that it is a little rough. Perhaps shooting a large amount of jacketed bullets will shine it up over time.

The only load I have found so far that doesn't lead the bore uses a 185 gr SWC from Missouri Bullet Company with a Brinnell hardness value of 12 and sits on top of a tiny charge of Bullseye. Try switching powders first, but a different bullet may be in order.

[RevolverJockey]

Bullets that are too hard don't conform to the rifling that allows gas to blow by and melt the sides as it goes down the barrel and fills the rifling.

It is an old caster saying, "Lead at the end of the barrel - not enough lube, lead at the start - fast, all the way down - too hard. You can obviously rule out too fast. Hope this helps.

I browsed their site and they post 18Br for everything including some bullets that say harder alloy for action sports. This may be well beyond what helps, but Br ratings are subjective and often only take account the surface hardness which can be altered by squelching, baking and will even degrade (soften) based on how long they have been cast not the true composition of the alloy - kind of like the temper of steel. In this case it is the surface tension at the point where the cast sets.

If you want, you could mail me some, I will melt out the lube and relube them with something harder like Rooster Zambini rifle lube see if that changes anything. I am running ~900 .401 in my 610 - 3k rounds an no evidence of leading.

Lastly, and forgive my simple approach, I am a simple person. Scratch your fingernail across the bullet, do you get a channel with displaced material, faint depression where your scraped or barely shiny with little evidence?

Lee

Edited August 13, 2010 by Mitch_Rapp.45

[kevinj308]

Just a FWIW based on my experience. I've used those same bullets from Missouri, and others as well and have always had some leading in my 625-8. My load is very similar to yours, Clays and a close OAL. I now tumble lube my bullets with Lee liquid alox lube. Doesn't cost much, just takes a few minutes. I just tumble the bullets in a platic container and put the Lee stuff right over the existing lube. Now I just pull a boresnake through once at the end of a match and the bore is shiny clean. The only downside I've found is it does leave a residue in the bullet seating die that needs to be removed periodically. For me that's every couple of hundred rounds. That's about all I do at a sitting anyway.

On the other hand my shooting buddy has the same gun, same load as I do and has never had to do anything. His gun just doesn't lead. I'm fairly envious, but I'm happier that I've found something that makes my gun not lead. Hope you find something that works for you, leading is a bummer. When I did have an issue with it I used a Lewis lead cleaner to remove the lead and it worked well.

Good luck

Kevin

[DWFAN]

Most of my MObullet loads lead the barrels. In my 1911 in 9mm and .45, 625, CZ, M&P. i use their 125, 147 gr 9mm and 200, 230 gr .45acp. Ive got some of the 185gr lswc but not tried those yet.

its a hard lead, with a hard lube thats still on the bullet after being pulled out of a bowling pin. Its just something i deal with to save money on ammo.

Ive not been able to figure out why, but im switching to BBIs for 9mm, theyre about what i can get the MO bullets for locally.

[RevolverJockey]

Might sound weird, but you can put them on a cookie sheet, raise the temp up to 200 or so just below the melting point of the lube and let them slowly cool. That will lower the hardness. I suspect the are hard because they are casting them into water not because of the alloy. Tin and Lead are cheap, Antimony on the other hand isn't.

Lee

[Shadowrider]

Have you checked your cylinder throat diameters? You want them at LEAST as big as the groove dia of your barrel and about .0005" bigger is preferable. If the bullets are being squeezed down before they go into the forcing cone it really doesn't matter what size they are when you load them. Ruger revolvers are notorius for being too small for lead bullets, though I've not heard about S&W's having this problem it could still be something to check. If you can pass an unloaded bullet through each charge hole by hand you are good to go. If it sticks and you need to tap it through you need to ream them.

But it doesn't sound like that's the problem if you aren't having an issue with the lighter bullets. I'd suspect the bullets are too hard and not obturating to seal the bore. You don't need a super hard bullet at 230 grain 45ACP velocities and 18 is pretty hard. I've got a Model 66 that I tried some hardcast 158's in .38 Special cases with a mouse fart Clays load. I shot 25 rounds and the groups opened quickly. It took me two hours to scrub all the lead out.

My 625-8 had the same problem and the cylinder throats were great. Wish I had it back. Where can I get these Chore Boy pads I keep hearing about?

Edited August 14, 2010 by Shadowrider

[Toolguy]

Sometimes the leading is caused by the lube being too hard. Lube that is still on the recovered bullet may as well not be on there in the first place. It has to melt off in the barrel to do what it's there for. I used to put a box of bullets in the freezer overnight, then shake them up to make the lube fall off and re lube them with White Label Carnuba Wax lube. That usually helps.

Edited August 14, 2010 by Toolguy

[GlennRasch]

My 230 gr RN loads (bullets from Missouri Bullet Company, hardness = Brinell 18) completely fill the grooves in the barrel of my 625-8 with lead, causing keyholing, but my 185 gr LSWC loads (also from Missouri Bullet Company, same hardness) shoot fine. Does anyone have any suggestions for why the 230 gr would lead so severely?

The 230 gr load:

3.7 gr Clays

.470" crimp

1.247" OAL

Averages 770 FPS.

Thanks.

I shot a 5in. 625-5 in USPSA and I use Berrys Bullets in the 185 Hollow Base copper jacketed they has the same profile as the 230 gr. Why use the lead you can buy a 1000 185gr. for $123.00 and 500 lead will run you $55.00-/+ . I just bought 2000 if you want send me a PM with your address and I'll send you a hand full, to try I know you will like them.....

[RevolverJockey]

Delete.. for a different thread..

Edited August 14, 2010 by Mitch_Rapp.45

[Ignatz]

I just fired 150 rounds of the Missouri 230 gr. "softball" rounds downrange in my 625-8 with no barrel/cylinder leading problems. I'm running out of my LaserCast 230's and wanted to see how these would do compared to the LaserCasts. I make crono easy with 4.1 gr's of WST. Maybe it was the time of the day (morning), but the Missouri bullets seemed to smoke more. The back of the frame above the firing pin seemed to get dirtier faster too (black crud). Is this build up of crud above the firing pin something that would go away if I shot jacketed bullets?

[MBC]

My 230 gr RN loads (bullets from Missouri Bullet Company, hardness = Brinell 18) completely fill the grooves in the barrel of my 625-8 with lead, causing keyholing, but my 185 gr LSWC loads (also from Missouri Bullet Company, same hardness) shoot fine. Does anyone have any suggestions for why the 230 gr would lead so severely?

The 230 gr load:

3.7 gr Clays

.470" crimp

1.247" OAL

Averages 770 FPS.

Thanks.

It looks to me like I have to agree with the folks here who are thinking that the bullet isn't obturating due to it being too hard. I shoot that bullet with 4.9 grains of Bullseye in my 1911's and don't have a leading problem. But the .45 ACP is a low pressure round and ideally, that bullet should be at a 12 Brinell rather than 18. When we started making them, in fact, we made them at 12 BHN but everybody wanted them harder so we made them with our 2/6 alloy to wind up with the 18 BHN.

This is one of those cases where market demands drives the response and folks who really aren't that well informed about obturation demand something that isn't optimal for them. That's why I put up the 'Technical' page on our website over 3 years ago in an attempt to provide a little basic education about the matter.

That said, however, we will happily make that bullet for you in 12 BHN. No problem at all, as we just use our softer (1.33/4) alloy.

I won't post the website address here because self-advertising is tacky, but you know where you ordered them. If you want the softer ones, just include a note in the 'Comments' section in the online order form.

Thanks!

Brad

Missouri Bullet Company

Edited August 14, 2010 by MBC

[MBC]

I browsed their site and they post 18Br for everything including some bullets that say harder alloy for action sports. This may be well beyond what helps, but Br ratings are subjective and often only take account the surface hardness which can be altered by squelching, baking and will even degrade (soften) based on how long they have been cast not the true composition of the alloy - kind of like the temper of steel. In this case it is the surface tension at the point where the cast sets.

Hi Lee -

Actually, we don't state that everything is 18 BHN. Some are, some aren't. The softer ones are stated at 12 BHN. Every bullet we manufacture and sell has a stated BHN associated with it, both on our website and on the box labels.

And our bullets are the same BHN all the way through. It's a function of the alloy, not any surface treatment.

Just to clarify the point.

Thanks/Brad

[MBC]

Might sound weird, but you can put them on a cookie sheet, raise the temp up to 200 or so just below the melting point of the lube and let them slowly cool. That will lower the hardness. I suspect the are hard because they are casting them into water not because of the alloy. Tin and Lead are cheap, Antimony on the other hand isn't.

Lee

That would be a wasted effort and wouldn't change anything, as the alloy we use determines the BHN. We use certified analysis foundry alloy in two hardnesses - the 12 BHN alloy is 1.33% tin, 4% antimony, balance lead. The 18 BHN alloy is 2% tin, 6% antimony. We actually sell this alloy in 60 lb. pigs to bullet casters and there is a photograph of one of the pigs on our website and I am surprised you didn't run across it when you were browsing our site (it's in the main navigation under "Bullet Casting Alloy."

FWIW, I don't know of a single commercial casting operation that uses water-quench in production, as the added operational load would be a nightmare. For example, we manufacture and ship a million bullets a month, on average, and the thought of adding the steps necessary to water-quench our output would cause nightmares. Number one, we would have water splashing under our five Bullet Masters with every drop from the double-cavity moulds (as you know, ahem, water and the proximity of molten lead is not a good combination), the temperature gradient of the water would change with every 250 degree bullet entering it, making a constant and predictable water temperature impossible, you would have to get the bullets utterly dry before sizing them, preferably using heat with a blower on small batches of bullets, then you would have to cool them to a consistent temperature before the lubrisizing operation, and then you would wind up with dull-looking, ugly bullets with inconsistent hardness.

No thanks!

Again, we regulate bullet hardness by working with the correct relative proportions of tin and antimony alloyed and certified at the foundry and we purchase this alloy in 22-ton truckload lots in both hard (2/6) and soft (1.33/4) form.

Brad

[MBC]

Dupe, sorry.

Edited August 14, 2010 by MBC

[DWFAN]

Thanks for joining in and posting all the information Brad.

[RevolverJockey]

Might sound weird, but you can put them on a cookie sheet, raise the temp up to 200 or so just below the melting point of the lube and let them slowly cool. That will lower the hardness. I suspect the are hard because they are casting them into water not because of the alloy. Tin and Lead are cheap, Antimony on the other hand isn't.

Lee

That would be a wasted effort and wouldn't change anything, as the alloy we use determines the BHN. We use certified analysis foundry alloy in two hardnesses - the 12 BHN alloy is 1.33% tin, 4% antimony, balance lead. The 18 BHN alloy is 2% tin, 6% antimony. We actually sell this alloy in 60 lb. pigs to bullet casters and there is a photograph of one of the pigs on our website and I am surprised you didn't run across it when you were browsing our site (it's in the main navigation under "Bullet Casting Alloy."

FWIW, I don't know of a single commercial casting operation that uses water-quench in production, as the added operational load would be a nightmare. For example, we manufacture and ship a million bullets a month, on average, and the thought of adding the steps necessary to water-quench our output would cause nightmares. Number one, we would have water splashing under our five Bullet Masters with every drop from the double-cavity moulds (as you know, ahem, water and the proximity of molten lead is not a good combination), the temperature gradient of the water would change with every 250 degree bullet entering it, making a constant and predictable water temperature impossible, you would have to get the bullets utterly dry before sizing them, preferably using heat with a blower on small batches of bullets, then you would have to cool them to a consistent temperature before the lubrisizing operation, and then you would wind up with dull-looking, ugly bullets with inconsistent hardness.

No thanks!

Again, we regulate bullet hardness by working with the correct relative proportions of tin and antimony alloyed and certified at the foundry and we purchase this alloy in 22-ton truckload lots in both hard (2/6) and soft (1.33/4) form.

Brad

Brad,

None of posts were a dig on you guys at all. Just trying to throw out idea for a fellow shooter. I myself squelch in water because a 5 gallon bucket of water covered in sponge pieces is the sorted non-flammable surface I can cast onto - I never have anything sit around and this method while not widely accepted gives me the desired result with the mix of range cast, jacked, and plated bullets I have an endless supply of. I only about 800 an hour using a single mold, I was not implying anything about you, the company or the product in any way just to clarify for everyone. I admittedly did not look long on the site, found it went to the .45 section just did a quick once over. Welcome to the forum, thanks for offering the suggestions, backing your product and generally caring what your customers think of them. You are keeping people shooting in tough times and we all appreciate it.

Lee

Edited August 14, 2010 by Mitch_Rapp.45

[MBC]

Thanks for joining in and posting all the information Brad.

Glad to be here as a member! I've been a lurker for quite a while. There are lots of smart, informed folks on here. I sponsor one of them in IDPA/IPSC, as a matter of fact. He's a local guy and all over the Action sports around Missouri.

I'm still quaking from the thought of water-quenching a million bullets a month :-)

Brad

[RevolverJockey]

Thanks for joining in and posting all the information Brad.

Glad to be here as a member! I've been a lurker for quite a while. There are lots of smart, informed folks on here. I sponsor one of them in IDPA/IPSC, as a matter of fact. He's a local guy and all over the Action sports around Missouri.

I'm still quaking from the thought of water-quenching a million bullets a month :-)

Brad

LOL, you are a funny guy. Luckily I live in Seattle, there is no shortage of water up here.

Lee

[MBC]

Brad,

None of posts were a dig on you guys at all. Just trying to throw out idea for a fellow shooter. I myself squelch in water because a 5 gallon bucket of water covered in sponge pieces is the sorted non-flammable surface I can cast onto - I never have anything sit around and this method while not widely accepted gives me the desired result with the mix of range cast, jacked, and plated bullets I have an endless supply of. I only about 800 an hour using a single mold, I was not implying anything about you, the company or the product in any way just to clarify for everyone. I admittedly did not look long on the site, found it went to the .45 section just did a quick once over. Welcome to the forum, thanks for offering the suggestions, backing your product and generally caring what your customers think of them. You are keeping people shooting in tough times and we all appreciate it.

Lee

I didn't take it that way at all, Lee. I just wanted to clarify what we do so that folks who didn't know us would know.

I did the water-quench deal when I was casting for myself with a Master Caster. It works great until you get enough bullets in the water that the temp rises and then the hardness changes. But since it was only for myself it didn't matter much, as I'm not that good of a shot anyhow :-)

Brad

[MBC]

LOL, you are a funny guy. Luckily I live in Seattle, there is no shortage of water up here.

Lee

I was in Seattle once! My three memories are 1.) Asking myself "Why does it rain all the time here?", 2.) Telling myself "There is NO WAY IN HELL that I am going up that thing!", and 3.) The reaction from the crowd to my ordering a Coors Light in a waterfront bar.

Brad

[zhanghengzhi]

Wow - thanks everyone. That's a lot of useful information.

I checked the diameter of both the 185 and 230 gr, and they're both 0.452", same as specified on the MBC site.

I'll try increasing the bell, clean out my barrel, and see if that makes these bullets shootable. If hardness is the real problem, I guess there's not much I can do but remember to try 12 BHN (or jacketed) next time.

[dagger10k]

Jacketed FTW