Handgun failure and switching guns midmatch

[muahdib4]

This may have already been covered but I ran into some issues with my Glock 35 at the Area 3 match and it got me thinking about a backup/secondary handgun. If I had a Glock 34 also could I have switched to it midmatch due to continued malfunctions with my other one since it would offer no competitive advantage. Lower magazine capacity and minor scoring would actually hurt and I would assume that it would bump all of the scoring (even for previous COF with the 35) down to minor for final scoring. I know that switching guns at all would be at the discretion of the Match Director but I was just wondering if changing to a handgun in another caliber would be allowed.

[ima45dv8]

I would allow the substitution, but with the understanding scoring would still be Major for the remainder of the match.

[BayouSlide]

I would allow the substitution, but with the understanding scoring would still be Major for the remainder of the match.

Typo or am I missing something. The competitor would be shooting a minor caliber but scored major? That would seem to be a major competitive advantage.

Curtis

[muahdib4]

I would allow the substitution, but with the understanding scoring would still be Major for the remainder of the match.

Typo or am I missing something. The competitor would be shooting a minor caliber but scored major? That would seem to be a major competitive advantage.

Curtis

I agree. I would think that the only way it could be allowed is if all scores were bumped to minor especially since you can't score the match partially. It would have to be all major or all minor. Being able to shoot a 9mm scored as major would be a huge advantage whereas scoring the whole match as minor after switching guns wouldn't be.

[wide45]

Read the rules. It's not brain surgery.

5.1.7

No requirement that replacement gun must be the same caliber.

Appendix C2 41

All stages will be scored with lowest power factor.

[muahdib4]

Read the rules. It's not brain surgery.

5.1.7

No requirement that replacement gun must be the same caliber.

Appendix C2 41

All stages will be scored with lowest power factor.

Awesome. I saw 5.1.7 but I didn't see Appendix C2 41. All of this is up to the Range Master of course since he would have the final say on allowing a substition of guns anyway per 5.1.7.

[ima45dv8]

I gamed this thread.

[wide45]

I gamed this thread.

The original question said the relevant match was A3, and we assume a match chrono was employed.

However, appendix A3 41 only applies to ammo that has been tested.

It's an oversight I'm sure, but there is nothing in the rules about using the lower power factor if there is no chrono. Hopefully this can be fixed in the next edition of the rules. Too late for the 2010 version?

So, while we know what the correct answer should be, in a match with no chrono, scoring the remainder of the stages major, while declaring minor, is not prohibited. Expect that it would be a competitive advantage, but that's the RM's call.

Edited August 9, 2010 by wide45

[muahdib4]

I gamed this thread.

The original question said the relevant match was A3, and we assume a match chrono was employed.

However, appendix A3 41 only applies to ammo that has been tested.

It's an oversight I'm sure, but there is nothing in the rules about using the lower power factor if there is no chrono. Hopefully this can be fixed in the next edition of the rules. Too late for the 2010 version?

So, while we know what the correct answer should be, in a match with no chrono, scoring the remainder of the stages major, while declaring minor, is not prohibited. Expect that it would be a competitive advantage, but that's the RM's call.

A3 wasn't an actual situation where I tried or asked or anything but just a situation where my particular firearm did have malfunctions. All the RO's, CRO's, MD and everyone else there were awesome and put on one hell of a match...just a shout out to all of them. I was just thinking about the future since having an actual second backup handgun just doesn't fit in the budget without being able to justify the cost. A Glock 34 that could be used in Production and potential backup in case my 35 goes down in Limited would make more sense for me personally than having 2 35's. I would assume and even ask the Range Master specifically to score all stages as minor if he did allow me to use a 34 in that situation. That would only be fair to the rest of the competitors at the very least. I just wanted to see if it could or would be allowed at local and/or major matches.

[mactiger]

Read a little further in the rules.

Appendix D covers the division rules. If the competitor was shooting in Production, no problem if there isn't a chrono. But, if he was in Open, Limited, or L-10 with that Glock 35, and switched to a 34 in 9mm, he couldn't stay scored as Major, because the division rules don't allow it. All of those require a minimum of .40 caliber to make Major, so sorry, charlie, but its minor all the way if that substitution is allowed. There should be no reason the RM wouldn't allow that swap, but chrono or not, there is no continuing as Major.

Troy

I gamed this thread.

The original question said the relevant match was A3, and we assume a match chrono was employed.

However, appendix A3 41 only applies to ammo that has been tested.

It's an oversight I'm sure, but there is nothing in the rules about using the lower power factor if there is no chrono. Hopefully this can be fixed in the next edition of the rules. Too late for the 2010 version?

So, while we know what the correct answer should be, in a match with no chrono, scoring the remainder of the stages major, while declaring minor, is not prohibited. Expect that it would be a competitive advantage, but that's the RM's call.

[G-ManBart]

Read a little further in the rules.

Appendix D covers the division rules. If the competitor was shooting in Production, no problem if there isn't a chrono. But, if he was in Open, Limited, or L-10 with that Glock 35, and switched to a 34 in 9mm, he couldn't stay scored as Major, because the division rules don't allow it. All of those require a minimum of .40 caliber to make Major, so sorry, charlie, but its minor all the way if that substitution is allowed. There should be no reason the RM wouldn't allow that swap, but chrono or not, there is no continuing as Major.

Troy

I know it was an oversight on your part, but just so nobody gets confused, Open does allow Major with 9mm. R,

[mactiger]

Yep. Thanks for catching that.

Troy

[BayouSlide]

I gamed this thread.

...and lost in Arbitration

Curtis

[ima45dv8]

I gamed this thread.

...and lost in Arbitration

Curtis

Nope.

I got exactly what I wanted.

[BayouSlide]

I gamed this thread.

...and lost in Arbitration

Curtis

Nope.

I got exactly what I wanted.

It's obvious who was the pawn and who was the king in this chess game...you've been two steps ahead of me all along.

Curtis

[wide45]

Read a little further in the rules.

Appendix D covers the division rules. If the competitor was shooting in Production, no problem if there isn't a chrono. But, if he was in Open, Limited, or L-10 with that Glock 35, and switched to a 34 in 9mm, he couldn't stay scored as Major, because the division rules don't allow it. All of those require a minimum of .40 caliber to make Major, so sorry, charlie, but its minor all the way if that substitution is allowed. There should be no reason the RM wouldn't allow that swap, but chrono or not, there is no continuing as Major.

Troy

I gamed this thread.

The original question said the relevant match was A3, and we assume a match chrono was employed.

However, appendix A3 41 only applies to ammo that has been tested.

It's an oversight I'm sure, but there is nothing in the rules about using the lower power factor if there is no chrono. Hopefully this can be fixed in the next edition of the rules. Too late for the 2010 version?

So, while we know what the correct answer should be, in a match with no chrono, scoring the remainder of the stages major, while declaring minor, is not prohibited. Expect that it would be a competitive advantage, but that's the RM's call.

I was not still discussing the original scenario. We could be talking open division, or switching to a minor .40.

I very much doubt that any competitor will ever be allowed to switch from major to minor while still scoring major. Nonetheless, there is a gap in the rules.

[mactiger]

Read a little further in the rules.

Appendix D covers the division rules. If the competitor was shooting in Production, no problem if there isn't a chrono. But, if he was in Open, Limited, or L-10 with that Glock 35, and switched to a 34 in 9mm, he couldn't stay scored as Major, because the division rules don't allow it. All of those require a minimum of .40 caliber to make Major, so sorry, charlie, but its minor all the way if that substitution is allowed. There should be no reason the RM wouldn't allow that swap, but chrono or not, there is no continuing as Major.

Troy

I gamed this thread.

The original question said the relevant match was A3, and we assume a match chrono was employed.

However, appendix A3 41 only applies to ammo that has been tested.

It's an oversight I'm sure, but there is nothing in the rules about using the lower power factor if there is no chrono. Hopefully this can be fixed in the next edition of the rules. Too late for the 2010 version?

So, while we know what the correct answer should be, in a match with no chrono, scoring the remainder of the stages major, while declaring minor, is not prohibited. Expect that it would be a competitive advantage, but that's the RM's call.

I was not still discussing the original scenario. We could be talking open division, or switching to a minor .40.

I very much doubt that any competitor will ever be allowed to switch from major to minor while still scoring major. Nonetheless, there is a gap in the rules.

Well, why didn't you say so?

Still the division rules cover most of the issues you'd see with changing guns. At a match with a chrono, there is no problem. As RM, with no chrono, I'd be hard pressed to allow someone to swap from an open gun to a 9mm 34 and still claim to be shooting major. .40 caliber could be problematic. Of course, there are those few dishonest competitors who will claim anything, and cheat. Not much to be done about that unless you can prove otherwise.

Troy

[wide45]

Lets try again.

This time the competitor is shooting Open. Level one match with no chrono. Declares major.

Has a squib in both first, and second stage, RM declares his ammo unsafe.

Competitor says he has another batch of ammo that he left in the truck because it doesn't make major.

RM says you can use that, but all your stages will be scored minor.

What rule can the RM show to the competitor that this is correct?

[mactiger]

Lets try again.

This time the competitor is shooting Open. Level one match with no chrono. Declares major.

Has a squib in both first, and second stage, RM declares his ammo unsafe.

Competitor says he has another batch of ammo that he left in the truck because it doesn't make major.

RM says you can use that, but all your stages will be scored minor.

What rule can the RM show to the competitor that this is correct?

First, this is no longer a question about swapping guns. It's about swapping ammo because it's been declared unsafe. Not the original question, but I'll play.

If I were the RM and a competitor made that statement to me, I'd simply cite 5.6.1, since he declared the substitute ammo to be minor, he's now shooting minor. He declared his original ammo as major, but it was deemed unsafe and withdrawn. Now he says, "this doesn't make major", so he's just declared minor, and his scores will reflect that. I'd thank him for being honest, but he's going to be scored minor.

Not rocket science, just common sense. Now, if he were to declare major for the substitute ammo, there would be no recourse; he'd still be shooting major. Might be cheating to do it, but there it is.

In every division but open and revolver, as I stated earlier, 9mm/.38 is going to be minor due to the division requirements. This goes back to the swapped gun question. So, I don't care if there is a chrono or not, if a competitor swaps from a .40 to a 9mm, he's going to be minor, except in Open and Revo.

Swapping same caliber? No way to determine, so you take declared power factor.

Swapping ammo? Still no way to really tell, so you take declared power factor. If the competitor volunteers the info that the ammo is not major, then he's in minor, using 5.6.1.

Troy

[wide45]

Ok, we're making progress.

First, in no part of anything I've written, am I trying to say that someone might be cheating, or sneaking something past an official. It's all open, and up front.

The idea I'm pursuing is that there is a small problem with the way a rule is written, and I'd like to think that NROI will eventually address it.

The original question was about changing caliber, and switching from major to minor mid match. Changing caliber was a non-issue, but we are discussing switching power factor, and the rules involved.

Which brings us back to the question at hand.

RM says you can use that, but all your stages will be scored minor.

What rule can the RM show to the competitor that this is correct?

What rule requires that previously shot stages, be scored minor?

Appendix A3 41 is all I can find, and it has a flaw.

[mactiger]

Ok, we're making progress.

First, in no part of anything I've written, am I trying to say that someone might be cheating, or sneaking something past an official. It's all open, and up front.

The idea I'm pursuing is that there is a small problem with the way a rule is written, and I'd like to think that NROI will eventually address it.

The original question was about changing caliber, and switching from major to minor mid match. Changing caliber was a non-issue, but we are discussing switching power factor, and the rules involved.

Which brings us back to the question at hand.

RM says you can use that, but all your stages will be scored minor.

What rule can the RM show to the competitor that this is correct?

What rule requires that previously shot stages, be scored minor?

Appendix A3 41 is all I can find, and it has a flaw.

Must be a typo: Appendix A3 is the glossary. C3 41 may be what you wanted. What's the problem?

We're not talking about testing procedures, but the rule is still applicable, especially when you take 5.6.1.2 into consideration. If the new ammo can't make major per division requirements, (as specified in Appendix D) it's minor, and per C3 41, the scores are recalculated to reflect that. If it can make major, then no problem, because 5.6.1 states that the declared power factor cannot be challenged. Changing calibers was the main issue in the OP's question: unless he was in Open or Revo, swapping from a .40 to a 9mm automatically moves his PF to minor. No way around it.

My point about cheating was that there will always be some people who will declare major even if they know they don't make it. Nothing to do about that in the absence of a chrono, unless the division rules can be brought into play.

Troy

[Flexmoney]

I just dug up C2.41 ...and now see that Troy already referenced it. (I'm too slow)

41. If a competitor's match ammunition is retested,

or if any authorized replacement

ammunition is used,

and different power factors are recorded

when

tested according to these rules,

the lower power factor must be applied to all

courses of fire, including those already completed by the competitor.

However, that rule...while giving us what we are looking for, seems specific too the actual Chrono procedure (C2 only?). Which is what I believe wide45 was referring to?

Didn't we used to have a rule in the main body of the rule book that basically said that if you shoot one round of lower pf ammo within any cof...you get that lower pf for all scores ?

Ahhh...maybe we are covered under C2.5 (Since C.41 can refer to C2.5 ?)

5. Failing these conditions, or in the absence of a chronograph, the match must

use each competitor's declared Power Factor for match scoring.

wide45...does that plug the hole?

[wide45]

It is not ideal, but good enough. C2 41 did not look to be referring to 5.6.1

I did not see C2 5, which I can accept fills the bill.

Thanks for your patience.

Edited August 11, 2010 by wide45