Help with Wilson Combat 10-Rounders

[RaymondMillbrae]

Hey Folks,

got a few questions for yall.

I just finished shooting the Bay Area Golden Bullet this past weekend, and I was totally riddled with FTF, Double Feeds, and jams.

Needless to say, I am totally bummed out for not checking everything over better before the match.

At first I thought it was my boolits (200-grain Rainier ballistic SWC @ COL of 1.250"), but upon further inspection...it was the blasted Wilson Combat 10-rounders. (See pictures attached below).

If you look at the attached pictures below, the four LEFT magazines are the new WC 10-rounders, and the four on the RIGHT are my trusty WC 8-round ETM's.

My 8-rounders have always worked flawlessly, but this was the very first time I have used my 10-rounders in a match. (Or anyplace for that matter).

Notice in the pictures that the 10-rounders keep the boolit almost parallel to the ground, and the 8-rounders give it a nice upward angle/tilt.

During the match I had MANY of the boolits feed totally parallel to the ground (no upward tilt), and got lodged within the magazine, never clearing the magazine. This caused massive problems - because when I racked the slide 2 or 3 times to get the boolit chambered, the boolit would stay jammed within the magazine and was getting hammered/seated deeper and deeper into the casing. This also caused a few double-feeds as well.

When the 10-rounders are loaded to capacity with boolits, and I try to unload the magazine with my thumb, the same thing happens - the booolits come out either parallel to the ground...or pointed DOWNWARD. And even if the boolits look like they are pointed at an upward angle in my 10-rounders - when pushed, they come out parallel to the ground or pointed downward.

*sigh*

At first I thought it was my boolits, but looking at the pictures below, and you can see that it was the 10-round mags that were the culprit.

What to do?

I tried bending the tip of the magazine spring (under the follower) upward, but it didn't help.

Should I change out the follower?

Should I send them back to Wilson Combat, or MidwayUSA?

Suggestions would be apprciated.

In Christ: Raymond

Edited July 28, 2010 by RaymondMillbrae

[Religious Shooter]

You should try round nose bullets first before doing anything. Even though the rounds are oriented like that, once the bullet hits the feed ramp (or frame) a round nose profiled bullet may cam up.

[a.roberts]

Is there any possibility that you took the 10 rounders apart to clean them and then put the spring in the wrong way?

[RaymondMillbrae]

Thanks,

but I kinda don't want to change my boolit because of a magazine.

I would rather have a relaible magazine that works with my choice of boolit.

And secondly..."Nope". The mag springs are correctly orientated.

What are other L-10 shooters using with their SWC boolits?

In Christ: Raymond.

PS: I measured the feed lips on my 8-round ETM's, verses the 10-roundeers, and there is a noticeable difference. (The 10-rounders have larger openings, both front and rear).

Edited July 28, 2010 by RaymondMillbrae

[a.roberts]

Hmmm...

In that case, I'd call Wilson.

[Aircooled6racer]

Hello: Make sure the follower and spring are installed into each other correctly. Also you can bend the spring so that it gives the BULLET an upword cant just like your 8 round mags. The follower in the 10 round mags is a little different than the standard 47D follower. Just a couple of things to check. If all else fails install new mag springs. Thanks, Eric

[RaymondMillbrae]

The upward tilt of the boolit is dictated by the follower, and not so much by the spring.

But if you look at my original post, I "did" angle the tip of the spring upward, just to give the follower a little bit of lower support in that area.

Methinks I may need to use a shorter COL with Wilson Mags.

When I have 5 to 6 boolits in the magazines, the top ones stay at an upward angle - which is what I want.

But when more boolits are added, the top boolit comes out parallel or pointed downward, and the boolit will NOT eject from the magazine.

Like I said, maybe these Wilson Combat 10-rounders need a shorter COL for SWC's. (I believe they recommend 1.245" for their magazines with round nose boolits).

The quest continues.

In Christ: raymond

Edited July 28, 2010 by RaymondMillbrae

[ChuckS]

I ran 1.245 200gr SWC with the 47T mags with no issues. I just changed the springs every year and kept them clean. (Wilson (Bill, that is) recommended 1.245 for SWC, not RN)

Later,

Chuck

[Religious Shooter]

If the followers are different... put the 8 rd followers in the 10 rd magazines and see if they work.

[RaymondMillbrae]

Chuck,

when I first shot a couple of rounds, my boolits were EXACTLY at a 1.245" COL.

I had a few problems the first time, so I lengthened them to a COL of 1.260". And just my luck, they were then used for a match. (This is when everything REALLY went south).

I will try to shorten it a bit, maybe to 1.235", and see what happens.

I will also try swapping-out the 10-round followers for the 8-round followers, just out of curiosity. (The 8-rounders have concave tops, and the 10-rounders have convex tops). But methinks it may not work, as I'm sure Wilson Combat designed these followers for their specific mags for a reason.

Thanks for following-up guys!!

In Christ: Raymond

PS: It's weird about SWC. Some load data state a COL of 1.225" - and others say 1.275" max. Go figure.

Edited July 28, 2010 by RaymondMillbrae

[G-ManBart]

First off, why in the world are you spelling it "boolit" rather than "bullet"?

If the bullets were seating deeper into the case when you tried to cycle the slide, that means you don't have enough bullet pull (neck tension) and that will hurt feeding reliability because the bullet moves back instead of up, along the ramp the way it's supposed to. Plated, lead, and moly also deform slightly when they hit the feed ramp, which can cause issues for some guns.

I'd ditch the cheap plated bullets and use something that will feed better and be more accurate...heck, you can buy Precision Delta 230gr FMJs for the same price as Rainier plated! I've seen plenty of folks use Wilson 10-round mags with no problems, but most are using a 230gr FMJ or JHP with a rounded profile.

[RaymondMillbrae]

Thanks, G-ManBart.

The "friction fit" is plenty tight on the boolit. (Rainier Ballistic SWC's have a very long sidewall). On top of that, I increased the crimp VERY SLIGHTLY to .007" inch.

I have a 16-pound recoil spring in my Nighthawk Predator, and if I rack the slide 2 or 3 times on a jammed boolit, ANY BOOLIT will get seated deeper in the casing.

And lastly, I come from the camps of "boolit casters". And one of our websites is CASTBOOLITS.COM. (Click on the link).

We have a tendancy of spelling bullets, "boolits". Hope it didn't make you lose sleep, or maybe change your morning rhythm so you place your leg into the opposite pant leg first, when you wake up in the morning.

In Christ: Raymond

PS: Thanks for the Precision Bullet link. The prices look great.

From left to right: SWC, FP, HP (Notice the sidewall on the SWC. Nice tight friction fit).

Edited July 28, 2010 by RaymondMillbrae

[RaymondMillbrae]

Here are a few more pictures.

The COL has been adjusted to 1.235".

When the top boolit is pushed from the rear, it becomes parallel to the barrel (see pictures below) and dips downward within the magazine as it comes out...or TRIES to come out.

Look at a few of the different angles I attached below. You will see the "shoulder" of the SWC catching on the front edge of the magazine.

As stated before, the boolit gets lodged within the magazine, and never gets to the chamber.

Methinks it is the massive spring pressure.

At first I thought the boolits were too long, and the bottom ones (the ones deepest ones within the magazine) were hitting the front edge of the magazine, and were "nose diving". But after I shortened them in length, it is still doing the same thing.

Anyone else shooting .45 ACP Rainier Ballistic SWC's? And if so, what are your COL...or what 10-round mags are you using?

In Christ: Raymond

PS: In the pictures below, the boolit is jammed within the case. It will not budge forward at all. Notice the SWC shoulder is caught on the front of the magazine. The question is: WHY is the boolit dipping downward when it is pushed forward?!

Edited July 29, 2010 by RaymondMillbrae

[Aircooled6racer]

Hello: Check the width of the feed lips. They should be around 0.407" or so. I use Precision Moly bullets which work better for me than the plated bullets. I also use an OAL of 1.220" which works in all makes of 45's so that the bullet does not hit the lands in the barrel. Thanks, Eric

[RaymondMillbrae]

Thanks.

The feed lips are all erratic on the 10-rounders. They range fron .395 to .416. And when full of rounds...even worst. (The Wilson Combat 8-round ETM's are very consistent, and seem to have much stronger feed lips).

Still waiting on Wilson Combat to answer my email, or call me on this. (The mags are still pretty new).

I have reduced the COL, have SLIGHTLY increased the crimp at the case mouth, and cut 2 coils off the top of the magazine spring. (They were super tight as heck)!

I will try this new set-up Saturday afternoon to see if it works.

More to come.

In Christ: Raymond

[trodrig]

Raymond,

My 45 loves 200gr SWC's seated at 1.250" from Wilson 47T mags. It looks like you already tried that length though. My experience has been mostly with cast lead and moly coated bullets. All of them at 0.452" in diameter.

Here are the things I'd check. First, take a loaded round and push the bullet against your reloading bench to attempt to shove the bullet into the case. Measure before and after pushing and see if you're getting any set back. You shouldn't! Second, have you measured a round after one successful chambering? How much, if any, bullet set back are you getting? You mentioned increasing the crimp, but crimp does not hold the bullet in the case. Neck tension does. And, while it may sound counter-intuitive, increasing crimp can actually decrease neck tension. You should crimp to ~0.469" measured at the case mouth. At least, that produced the best results in my 45.

One other thing I had to adjust when working on feeding issues in my 45 was the extractor tension. Mine was WAY too tight from the factory and was causing headaches. There's tons of info on the forum about testing/tuning that so I'll not rehash here.

I hope some of this helps you!

[RaymondMillbrae]

Trodrig,

Thank for the response.

Initially (upon a shooters advice), I tried placing absolutely no crimp on the casing, so all I did was remove the initial belling.

This was ONE of the problems, as I could positively see the case lip cathching on the front of the mag. On top of that, when the boolit "DID" leave the magazine, it would get stuck in the 45-degree position - with the top edge of the boolit stuck on the top of the chamber, and the case not being able to slide under the extractor.

So I crimped it down .005" at the very edge of the case lip, and it helped...a touch.

By taking it down to .007" of a crimp (which is EXACTLY .468" inches), it eliminated the latter problem 100%. So I believe I have the "crimp issue" solved and out of the way.

I have also checked the "friction fit" of the round into the case. Like I mentioned above, this was one of the reasons I initially chose this specific SWC (because of it's long sidewall length), which equates to a nice tight friction fit.

Now I am experimenting with lengths. It seems to me that the shape of this specific SWC is prone to catching on the front edge of the magazine. (See above pictures).

The hollow-points work perfectly, and so do my flat points. (See pictures above). But somehow the SWC's are still prone to catching on the front edge of the magazine, and are not even having the chance of getting chambered. (Can't chamber it, if it can't exit the magazine).

As for the extractor, I thought of that as well. But like I said before, by process of elimination, I now know that the rounds are not even leaving the magazine. So the extractor theory is a moot point.

I will be tyring my new loads on Saturday.

COL: 1.235"

Crimp: .468" inches

Magazine springs: Removed top 2 coils to reduce some of the pressure.

Hopes: High

Thanks again,Trodrig!

In Christ: Raymond

Edited July 30, 2010 by RaymondMillbrae

[Aircooled6racer]

Hello: Just a note for you. The early Wilson mags were mag from thinner gauge metal. They tend to spread apart when fully loaded. Wilson will make it right for you. Thanks, Eric

[Duane Thomas]

Well, to start with - and not to rub it in, because I realize it's too late now - but I'm sure you've now learned one of the basic rules of match shooting: NEVER make a match, especially a major, the very first time you try a new piece of equipment. That's just begging for trouble. Ideally you want every piece of equipment you use on match day, gun, ammo, magazines....everything, to be the exact same stuff you've been using with absolutely flawless reliability, for thousands if not tens of thousands of rounds, for months if not years, before the match.

The reason the bullets are nosediving on you is that it requires much a harder spring compression to fit ten rounds into a 1911 magazine than it requires to fit seven or eight. Even given the longer overall length of the 10-rounder, still you've got to have a pretty strong spring to lift ten rounds fast enough to catch the slide, and that spring is all being compressed into an area at the bottom of mag, what, an inch long? Bottom line, you wind up with a LOT of upward spring pressure on the ammo stack. The rounds just don't want to come of the magazine as easily as they do from a short mag, and have a serious tendency to nosedive.

But even then, your problem is not primarily the magazine, it's bullet choice. A plated or jacketed SWC is quite possibly the single worst feeding .45 ACP projectile. Seriously, you would be hard pressed to make a worse choice from a feed reliability standpoint. Now, lead SWCs are a completely different matter, but plated or jacketed is pretty much a complete none-starter. Speer makes - or at least at one time did make, I haven't checked lately - a jacketed SWC that is, as far as I know, the only bullet type, by name, that Wilson expressly warns shooters not to use in a 1911, even with their shorter magazines.

Honestly, there's really no way you're going to make these bullets feed in your gun. There's really no way you're going to make ANY plated or jacketed SWC feed in your gun. Either switch to a lead SWC or either a lead or plated/jacketed round nose and your problems will go away.

[ChuckS]

Anyone else shooting .45 ACP Rainier Ballistic SWC's? And if so, what are your COL...or what 10-round mags are you using?

I have been using Rainier .45 200gr SWC bullets at 1.245 with only a de-belling crimp in Wilson 47T magazines with the 47T follower and fresh unmodified springs since 2002. They work great. This is with 2 SA 45's, one with a Kart barrel and one with a Schuemann barrel.

Could you take a picture of this sort of thing with the mag and the barrel installed in your frame? I would think that the bullet would of already bounced off the feed ramp and be on it's way to the barrel hood by now! The feed geometry of the gun can be part of the problem! I took the gun, mags, ammo over to my gunsmith and he did some minor tweaks to stop the occasional 3-point jamb. Fresh springs in the mags kept the rounds from hanging up like yours. Since the slide catches only the top of the case rim, there will be some tendency for the nose to dip no matter what. If your springs are weak or the tube is providing extra friction it could continue down/straight until it hits either the feed ramp or the mag tube. If your barrel has been over-throated, it will probably never work perfectly.

Later,

Chuck

[RaymondMillbrae]

Thanks, guys.

Like I said, I have around 300 home-rolled rounds that I will try out this Saturday.

If they fail, then I will go with either a round nose, or flat point, plated boolit.

These SWC's have always been reliable in my 8-round Wilson Combat ETM's. So I have really been scratching my head over this one.

And Duane...you're correct. I didn't even think about it when I used these new 10-round magazines at the match. I was tearing my boolits and pistol apart to figure out why the pistol was jamming, and giving me continual FTF's and double feeds. It never dawned on me (until later, during my process of elimination), that it was the new 10-round magazines.

More will be revealed on Saturday.

And by the way, why will LSWC's work, but yet PLATED SWC's (which are also very soft) not work?

In Christ: Raymond

[Duane Thomas]

That's a question I've asked in the past, myself, because my results with lead SWCs in 1911s have been excellent, with plated/jacketed lousy, and the answer I've gotten time and again is that lead is innately a slicker material, with a higher lubricity factor, thus innately feeds much more smoothly.Honestly I've never been completely satisfied with that answer, it's just the only one I've ever gotten to explain the observed reality.

[RaymondMillbrae]

Thanks for the timely response, Daredevil...err...ummm...I mean, Duane.

I was thinking that lead (being very malleable/soft) would just get "dented out of the way" and continue moving whenever it happened to bump or snag against the magazine or chamber.

Brass plating is very soft, and I assume it will also get "dented out of the way" and keep moving forward. But if the plating "snags" on something...that's it...it's stuck there. Whereas the lead would just be "cut" and continue moving.

Just a theory...and I'm sticking to it. Ha ha ha.

I'll keep yall posted after this Saturdays practice..

In Christ: Raymond

Edited July 30, 2010 by RaymondMillbrae

[RAZZ]

Just something I noticed on my single stack: I had a gun built a while back, and the gunsmith used a ramped Schueman classic barrel. I have problems running certain magazines with it. I would get a similar malfunction as the one pictured above (but the round is not hitting the front of the mag), where when I released the slide on a full magazine, the top round would, instead of going forward, would first 'rotate' in the magazine and nosedive, and would then make contact with the feed ramp. With a roundnose bullet, it wasn't a problem, as it would simply slide up the ramp, and would work just fine. But it would not feed hollowpoints, or any truncated cone bullets---unless I downloaded the 8 round mags to 6 rounds. I was using a number of different magazines--CMC power mags and Metalform / Cobra mags. It seemed as though the extra power springs in them would cause so much pressure on the top round that when the slide came forward, the top round was so tight in the feed lips that it would first nosedive before moving forward. I started trimming the spring on the Metalform, and got it to feed just fine--but then it would not lock back reliably.

I ended up buying some Wilson Elite mags, and they work perfectly for me. Now I'm not saying the mags were the problem, as the Metalform and CMC magazines worked fine in my other 1911, but there was enough tollerance stacking or some other combination of black magic that caused the gun not to work with one mag, and work with the other. It seemed as though the extra power springs may have contributed to my problem.

[RaymondMillbrae]

OK,

here's the deal, for myself.

I called Wilson Combat and spoke with Nick Moraitis. He told me to send back the 10-rounders, and he would replace them for me. (Just in case there was something wrong with them. Ruling out all possibilities).

He also - specificaly - said that Wilson Combat has done extensive testing on plated and FMJ SWC's, and they were found to be very unreliable in their magazines.

"That is the problem. You are using plated SWC's". (Quoted directly from Nick).

Nick also stated that the springs on the 10-rounders had to be very stiff in order to reliably cycle every round. And when the 10-rounders were topped-off, the top 2 rounds would naturally be pointed kind of parallel (like my pix above), but would cycle fine. Once again, this ws due to the tight springs needed for the 10-rounders.

As for the 8-round ETM's - Nick said the SWC's shot out of them because they are exceptional magazines. The exceptional quality made up for the lousy boolit.

And lastly the match this weekend. The SWC's shot OK during the match. I only had one FTF, and it was during a magazine change with a fully-topped magazine.

Bottom line, I am sending back the 10-rounders (just in case), and am looking into a more reliable boolit.

I'm kind of bummed, as I really like the big holes of the SWC's - but then again, I need reliability even more.

Thanks for all the responses.

And that is the end of the story.

In Christ: Raymond