Any opinions on the new IDPA 3-gun rules?

[Outsydlooknin75]

I think that it would be interesting. I dont think that i would go out and spend money to buy a set up specifically for this. If I had a set up that would work I dont see why not shooting it.

[Alaskapopo]

A few thoughts...

10 shotgun rounds max / stage isnt much... Especially since you're only allowed 5+1 and an additional 6 on your belt, two spare rounds isnt a lot, especially if the stage is mixed bird/slugs.

Oddly enough no mag capacity for rifle, but stages with more than 15 rounds (18 max / stage) must have a mandatory reload.

No weak shoulder long gun at more than 20 yards as well as the no headshots beyond 30y seems a bit restrictive.

"only one type of ammunition may be loaded before the start of a stage", so no mixing bird and slugs in the tube. Not really sure I understand the need for this either, especially with the 5+1 mag capacity.

15yard max total movement for a multigun stage? I can understand that they dont want it to be about who can run a 100y dash faster, but 3 guns in 15 yards?

I'm sure some fun matches can be built with this format, but I dont really see myself traveling any distance to attend one.

I agree. Personally I am not a fan of shooting off the weak shoulder even in real life. Yes you expose less of your body as a target but you are shooting with your weak side and most people don't shoot nearly as well on this side and they must stay exposed longer to make the shots and their accuracy is not as great. If they wanted to limit weak side shooting they should say their must be a barricade or something for the competitor to shoot around (and use for support) to make weak side shooting viable.

So Pat......you never see the need to go bi-lateral in tight confines of a house when searching rooms?

Actually no. The Israeli lean is much more efficient and allows you to shoot with your weapon side. (which for most people is much faster and more accurate) Again the argument is more target exposure and making the hits quickly vs less target exposure (support side) and more time exposed to make the hits. Also in real life the last thing I want to have a stressed out officer doing is juggling a gun from one hand to another on each corner he takes. That is a recipe for disaster. You also see Negligent discharges in matches when competitors switch sides.

Requiring support side shooting with a long gun rather in the game or real life is stupid in my opinion. The only support side shooting I see as relevant is when your weapon hand is out of commission. But in fairness this topic is often debated among firearms trainers.

Pat

Edited July 8, 2010 by Alaskapopo

[Alaskapopo]

Now guys the TIGHT confines of Alaska's trailer parks and other "low Rent housing" that Pat loves to tell us all about,...the ones where even a 14.5" barrel is toooo damn long, all turn to the right...it is THE code in Alaska building so no-one needs to do bi-latteral shooting..."Alastical" shooting!

When was the last time you did a building search Kurt?

I was looking for a guy with a knife who had tried to stab two people on the 4th. I respect your opinion on all things game related Kurt as your one of the best three gun shooters out there. Frankly however I don't respect your real world advice. If I want advice or training in that area I will go to the likes of Pat Rogers and Larry Vickers.

I will drop this topic if you will. I am not going to bend and it looks like you are not either.

Back to the game.

I think stage designers should build stages that by design of the props and fault lines force the shooters to do what they want not some arbitrary rule. If you want left side shooting put in fault lines and barricades that are tight and force the shooter to use it.

I have started to practice support side shooting with a long gun however just for the game. I don't want to be caught off guard at next years Larue Match.

Pat

Edited July 8, 2010 by Alaskapopo

[SinistralRifleman]

People can't shoot support side because they don't practice shooting support side. Because people fail to practice shooting support side seems like a silly reason to not include it in matches.

As a left handed shooter I have CONSTANTLY for the 9 years I have been playing these games had to switch on fly and shoot support side because stage designers design stages with the other 90% of the population in mind. Every major match I go to I have had to do it at least once if not more. Switching on the fly is second nature to me.

You also see Negligent discharges in matches when competitors switch sides.

I regularly shoot matches where EVERYONE has to shoot support side, and as I said above I have to do it regularly anyway. In fact we just ran 55 people through a rifle match last weekend where all of them had to shoot support side. No ADs. It is not a safety issue more than anything else we do with guns in practical matches. I have yet to see an ND because of it, and if there was it would be because they violated a basic gun safety rule; finger off the trigger until you are ready to shoot.

But in fairness this topic is often debated among firearms trainers.

I would encourage you to take a class with Bennie Cooley (Or Kyle Lamb, or several others pushing advanced techniques). There is distinct value in ambidextrous gun handling for economy of motion and speed increases. The arguments against ambidextrous gun handling I have heard in other schools are 1) people don't practice it, 2) in real life you won't think to do it anyway. Those two things go hand in hand...if you aren't comfortable with it, you won't do it when you have the option of doing so. It's a circular argument.

Competition shooters are generally people who strive to better themselves by competing. To better ourselves we need to do things that are hard, and challenge us to learn new skills.

[shooterready]

Here's a link that works: IDPA 3-Gun Rules

I think the 6 round max is okay. I don't think IDPA would buy a Saiga being a typical home defense gun.

Edit to korect speelin'

Dude, that's what I use for my HD shotty!

[Alaskapopo]

People can't shoot support side because they don't practice shooting support side. Because people fail to practice shooting support side seems like a silly reason to not include it in matches.

As a left handed shooter I have CONSTANTLY for the 9 years I have been playing these games had to switch on fly and shoot support side because stage designers design stages with the other 90% of the population in mind. Every major match I go to I have had to do it at least once if not more. Switching on the fly is second nature to me.

You also see Negligent discharges in matches when competitors switch sides.

I regularly shoot matches where EVERYONE has to shoot support side, and as I said above I have to do it regularly anyway. In fact we just ran 55 people through a rifle match last weekend where all of them had to shoot support side. No ADs. It is not a safety issue more than anything else we do with guns in practical matches. I have yet to see an ND because of it, and if there was it would be because they violated a basic gun safety rule; finger off the trigger until you are ready to shoot.

But in fairness this topic is often debated among firearms trainers.

I would encourage you to take a class with Bennie Cooley (Or Kyle Lamb, or several others pushing advanced techniques). There is distinct value in ambidextrous gun handling for economy of motion and speed increases. The arguments against ambidextrous gun handling I have heard in other schools are 1) people don't practice it, 2) in real life you won't think to do it anyway. Those two things go hand in hand...if you aren't comfortable with it, you won't do it when you have the option of doing so. It's a circular argument.

Competition shooters are generally people who strive to better themselves by competing. To better ourselves we need to do things that are hard, and challenge us to learn new skills.

Two things I have seen more negligent discharges at matches than anywhere else and I have seen one while the shooter was switching hands. Swapping back and forth under stress of the timer or real stress induces mistakes and people screw up.

I have taken a class with Bennie Cooley several years ago. It was an Urban Tactical Rifle Instructors Class. He did go over support sided shooting. Good class but I have had many classes since then as well some for and some against support sided shooting. I have formed my own opinion on the matter. Which is as I said before. Unless you are truly ambidextrous you will always be slower and less accurate with your support side. It makes more sense to me to use your dominant side and shoot as quickly and as accurately as you can while exposing more of your body to the enemy vs using your support side and exposing less of your body but having to expose yourself longer to make the hits or simply missing. I think it would be better for the stage designers to come up with a challenging course and allow the shooter to figure out how to shoot it vs having the stage designer mandate certain shooting positions such as left handed shooting. If they really want left or right handed shooting set up the fault lines and stage props where it would be an advantage to do so.

Like I said before though I am practicing support side shooting for one reason. Because I don't want to be caught off guard again at a match like I was at Larue's. I knew there would be left handed shooting and I did some practice with it. But not in my wildest dreams did I think we would be shooting left handed from prone at 250 yards. I have never seen that in a match before and I was not ready. I like to win as much as the next guy so I will practice this skill so I will be ready next time. But in real life would I ever chose to use my weak side for a long range shot no. Not unless there was a really good reason to do so.

Pat

Edited July 8, 2010 by Alaskapopo

[shooterready]

Good thing I have other SG's.

[Alaskapopo]

Good thing I have other SG's.

One thing I need to clarify. In the rules are they stating you can't load more than 5 +1 or can you gun not be capable of holding more than 5+1.

pat

[SinistralRifleman]

I think shooterready is saying his home defense shotgun is a Saiga-12 and it is fortunate he has other guns to use because mag fed guns are prohibited outright.

[00bullitt]

Now guys the TIGHT confines of Alaska's trailer parks and other "low Rent housing" that Pat loves to tell us all about,...the ones where even a 14.5" barrel is toooo damn long, all turn to the right...it is THE code in Alaska building so no-one needs to do bi-latteral shooting..."Alastical" shooting!

When was the last time you did a building search Kurt?

I was looking for a guy with a knife who had tried to stab two people on the 4th. I respect your opinion on all things game related Kurt as your one of the best three gun shooters out there. Frankly however I don't respect your real world advice. If I want advice or training in that area I will go to the likes of Pat Rogers and Larry Vickers.

I will drop this topic if you will. I am not going to bend and it looks like you are not either.

Back to the game.

I think stage designers should build stages that by design of the props and fault lines force the shooters to do what they want not some arbitrary rule. If you want left side shooting put in fault lines and barricades that are tight and force the shooter to use it.

I have started to practice support side shooting with a long gun however just for the game. I don't want to be caught off guard at next years Larue Match.

Pat

Pat.....I'm sure in your vast experience as a law enforcement officer and firearms instructor that you do test some of this theory out in FoF/Sims scenarios. If you haven't....I suggest you do. The results may create a rather disturbing shift in your paradigm.

[Alaskapopo]

Now guys the TIGHT confines of Alaska's trailer parks and other "low Rent housing" that Pat loves to tell us all about,...the ones where even a 14.5" barrel is toooo damn long, all turn to the right...it is THE code in Alaska building so no-one needs to do bi-latteral shooting..."Alastical" shooting!

When was the last time you did a building search Kurt?

I was looking for a guy with a knife who had tried to stab two people on the 4th. I respect your opinion on all things game related Kurt as your one of the best three gun shooters out there. Frankly however I don't respect your real world advice. If I want advice or training in that area I will go to the likes of Pat Rogers and Larry Vickers.

I will drop this topic if you will. I am not going to bend and it looks like you are not either.

Back to the game.

I think stage designers should build stages that by design of the props and fault lines force the shooters to do what they want not some arbitrary rule. If you want left side shooting put in fault lines and barricades that are tight and force the shooter to use it.

I have started to practice support side shooting with a long gun however just for the game. I don't want to be caught off guard at next years Larue Match.

Pat

Pat.....I'm sure in your vast experience as a law enforcement officer and firearms instructor that you do test some of this theory out in FoF/Sims scenarios. If you haven't....I suggest you do. The results may create a rather disturbing shift in your paradigm.

You assume I have not participated in force on force. I have participated in Force on Force several times over the years in training. I agree its a great training aid. However my experiences in force on force have not changed my mind on this issue. What works for you may not work for others.

Pat

Edited July 9, 2010 by Alaskapopo

[00bullitt]

I never assumed any such thing. What I did assume is that you have at least used FoF as a training aid and tool. I just made a recommendation if you have not. But.....your mind is made up. Do as you please.

[Alaskapopo]

I never assumed any such thing. What I did assume is that you have at least used FoF as a training aid and tool. I just made a recommendation if you have not. But.....your mind is made up. Do as you please.

Sorry I read your post wrong. My mind is made up but its not without giving both sides a try. I took Bennie Cooley's training as my first real rifle trianing and got the perspective of using your support side for shooting around the left side of cover. I have had other training that taught me to do the Isralie (spelling error) lean. After working with both I made up my mind. I feel I gave both theories a fair shake. I am doing some more left handed work for matches so maybe as I get better with my left side my opinion will change.

Pat

Edited July 9, 2010 by Alaskapopo

[Merlin Orr]

All this tactical nonsense makes makes me nauseous. This Forum is not about the pros and cons of tactical "real world" house clearing - it is about competition shooting.

For 99% of us anyway.

[SinistralRifleman]

This Forum is not about the pros and cons of tactical "real world" house cleaning - it is about competition shooting.

Statements like this in the rules of the organization themself, make this sort of discussion unavoidable:

IDPA DMG is a shooting sport that uses practical equipment to solve

simulated “real world” self-defense scenarios.

Without that justification for the rules being the way they are, there would be no basis for this debate.

I am starting an organization dedicated to running marathon races...we will practice every month with a pie eating contest. (no I'm not just talking about the support side only debate, see my earlier post)

Edited July 9, 2010 by SinistralRifleman

[00bullitt]

All this tactical nonsense makes makes me nauseous. This Forum is not about the pros and cons of tactical "real world" house clearing - it is about competition shooting.

For 99% of us anyway.

Merlin....I'll agree that the intent of the forum is to focus more on the competition aspect of shooting. But as Russell pointed out...these games we play are about the practical and defensive use of firearms.

For me.....the reason I got into competitive shooting was to enhance my gunhandling and marksmanship skills to enhance their use in the real world while at the same time being able to see measured improvement while having a ton of fun and meeting some of the best folks on the planet that I have ever had the pleasure to meet. I believe heavily in the correlation of competition and the real world use of firearms for defensive purposes. sometimes these discussions run together.

[Alaskapopo]

All this tactical nonsense makes makes me nauseous. This Forum is not about the pros and cons of tactical "real world" house clearing - it is about competition shooting.

For 99% of us anyway.

Merlin....I'll agree that the intent of the forum is to focus more on the competition aspect of shooting. But as Russell pointed out...these games we play are about the practical and defensive use of firearms.

For me.....the reason I got into competitive shooting was to enhance my gunhandling and marksmanship skills to enhance their use in the real world while at the same time being able to see measured improvement while having a ton of fun and meeting some of the best folks on the planet that I have ever had the pleasure to meet. I believe heavily in the correlation of competition and the real world use of firearms for defensive purposes. sometimes these discussions run together.

I got into competition shooting to test my skills and for fun. What I am wondering is why has USPSA and others come so far from their roots. Practical shooting was started by Jeff Cooper to help people become better with defensive firearms. Now even talking about tactics or other defensive gun issues is shunned by USPSA to the point they want to change the target. I think the sport needs to get closer to its roots and get further away from the politically correct BS. Just my opinion.

Pat

[SinistralRifleman]

Like NST, one of the reasons I compete and encourage others to do so is to improve their gun handling and marksmanship skills. I am merely a citizen, my job doesn't require that I carry a firearm on a daily basis. I do however carry/own firearms for self defense, and believe I have an obligation to be well trained and proficient in their use. I'd rather shoot stages that are set up like a midway carnival game but push my skills shooting and physically than stages that purport to be tactical, but are limited in the skills and difficulty being tested. The matches I enjoy the most are the hardest ones with unexpected challenges...but then maybe I'm a weirdo in that regard.

[00bullitt]

All this tactical nonsense makes makes me nauseous. This Forum is not about the pros and cons of tactical "real world" house clearing - it is about competition shooting.

For 99% of us anyway.

Merlin....I'll agree that the intent of the forum is to focus more on the competition aspect of shooting. But as Russell pointed out...these games we play are about the practical and defensive use of firearms.

For me.....the reason I got into competitive shooting was to enhance my gunhandling and marksmanship skills to enhance their use in the real world while at the same time being able to see measured improvement while having a ton of fun and meeting some of the best folks on the planet that I have ever had the pleasure to meet. I believe heavily in the correlation of competition and the real world use of firearms for defensive purposes. sometimes these discussions run together.

I got into competition shooting to test my skills and for fun. What I am wondering is why has USPSA and others come so far from their roots. Practical shooting was started by Jeff Cooper to help people become better with defensive firearms. Now even talking about tactics or other defensive gun issues is shunned by USPSA to the point they want to change the target. I think the sport needs to get closer to its roots and get further away from the politically correct BS. Just my opinion.

Pat

Although I have contributed to this discussion. Lets try and get it back on track so that I don't have to prune it to follow the topic.

[Alaskapopo]

Like NST, one of the reasons I compete and encourage others to do so is to improve their gun handling and marksmanship skills. I am merely a citizen, my job doesn't require that I carry a firearm on a daily basis. I do however carry/own firearms for self defense, and believe I have an obligation to be well trained and proficient in their use. I'd rather shoot stages that are set up like a midway carnival game but push my skills shooting and physically than stages that purport to be tactical, but are limited in the skills and difficulty being tested. The matches I enjoy the most are the hardest ones with unexpected challenges...but then maybe I'm a weirdo in that regard.

You have a good point. I should suck it up and just get better left handed. While Larue was a hard match for me due to the left handed shooting. It was also one of the most fun I have ever done. The shooting from the back of a flat bed truck was awsome. So for the game the tougher the better.

Pat

[whiskey1]

Guys, Decisions you make in a gunfight are the most personal decisions you will ever make. Do I shoot or not? Do I keep shooting? Do I use my strong hand or my really strong hand? All of these and ten thousand others are decisions that belong only to the man at the tip of the spear. If some don't want a tool in their box like shooting with a hand that they choose to let remain weak (instead of making is strong then- fine. When thier problem presents itself they will have the rest of their life to solve it. In a similar vein of thought why would someone choose to tell another shooter what equipment or techniques to use unless they were asked? When I teach a class I show the students the several ways I know how to solve a particular problem but they are free to solve it their way (within the bounds of safety of course). Therein lies my problem with IDPA mindset- the certain group of folks who have determined that they know the real rules of using a firearm defensively and try to build a game around it. It stifles innovation and creative thinking. If I can outthink the badguy I may not HAVE to shoot him...but if I am forced to think like everyone else then my and their results will be strikingly similar. Personally, I use both my left and right sides to drive rifles, shotguns, and handguns during real tactical problems on an increasingly regular basis. I think I know what I know and I think others do not know what they don't know, by hey what do I know? I know I'll shoot one of these matches if it is close by and I have nothing more exciting planned. I also know that I had rather clear a closet with my left side than do the Gaza lean at a range of two feet, thereby exposing myself-even more- to some desperate gentleman with a Raven .25 who wants nothing more than to shoot me in the head with it. Tactical rant off.....for good.

Edited to fix punctuation and to say sorry for the loss of personal self control.

Edited July 9, 2010 by whiskey1

[kurtm]

Sorry I haven'teen here in a while Pat I was off giving a class to a large metorpolitan SWAT team on building entry and room clearing....they have the coolest new armor truck and these really cool flex cameras, and we got to do explosive entries with det-cord and styrafoam tamping to cut a hole in the door..oh and yes I did teach support side shooting...which as Pat mentions can cause a bit of fumbling for the UNTRAINED, just like it does at a match...FOR THE UNTRAINED, but after a couple of hours of doing it right even the K-9 was able to do stuff weak side. The last time I did a building clearance was about 5 minutes ago when I closed up my shop....I made sure the light was off and the door was locked.

As for the IDPA rules, I think the 3-gun lite statement was about right, I don't see myself playing anytime soon. I shot a IDPA 3-gun match some 3 years ago and as I left My partner said he had shot 3 matches today...I said WHAT?? I have been with you all day...what are you talking about??? He replied My first, My last, and My only IDPA 3-gun match!

[bigbrowndog]

Kurt, didn't we have a building clearing the other day when I was there and I had to shoot an attacker as I recall, later you sat in silence in the dark, staking out the attackers Aop (area of operation) with NV, but had no luck. only later to find out that one of the earlier shootings had resulted in a fatality for one of the gang members hiding there in the Aop.

Then of course was the stakeout at the cemetery, with the 2 perps with guns, and flashlights, Oh, and don't forget the federal task force unit we were on when all hell broke loose at the remote location, and we had numerous deviants running everywhere, we had to do a area by area clearing looking for all the perps, plus the ones that were hanging out by the restrooms, and the civilian living quarters, those were very technical shots, especially yours from prone in the rain with the assailant under the low cover.

Trapr

[kurtm]

Yes Trapr, but he asked about the "last time" I did a building clearing. BTW since you gave that one a load of shot, we haven't had anymore problems in the area. The side of the building has been repaired and the alarm system is back on line, but we have to remain diligent, after all it is a very bad area.

[Mbauer67]

Guys, Decisions you make in a gunfight are the most personal decisions you will ever make. Do I shoot or not? Do I keep shooting? Do I use my strong hand or my really strong hand? All of these and ten thousand others are decisions that belong only to the man at the tip of the spear. If some don't want a tool in their box like shooting with a hand that they choose to let remain weak (instead of making is strong then- fine. When thier problem presents itself they will have the rest of their life to solve it. In a similar vein of thought why would someone choose to tell another shooter what equipment or techniques to use unless they were asked? When I teach a class I show the students the several ways I know how to solve a particular problem but they are free to solve it their way (within the bounds of safety of course). Therein lies my problem with IDPA mindset- the certain group of folks who have determined that they know the real rules of using a firearm defensively and try to build a game around it. It stifles innovation and creative thinking. If I can outthink the badguy I may not HAVE to shoot him...but if I am forced to think like everyone else then my and their results will be strikingly similar. Personally, I use both my left and right sides to drive rifles, shotguns, and handguns during real tactical problems on an increasingly regular basis. I think I know what I know and I think others do not know what they don't know, by hey what do I know? I know I'll shoot one of these matches if it is close by and I have nothing more exciting planned. I also know that I had rather clear a closet with my left side than do the Gaza lean at a range of two feet, thereby exposing myself-even more- to some desperate gentleman with a Raven .25 who wants nothing more than to shoot me in the head with it. Tactical rant off.....for good.

Edited to fix punctuation and to say sorry for the loss of personal self control.

Well said....hopefully this will help bring this thread back from a serious thread drift.