yeahyeah Posted January 26, 2004 Share Posted January 26, 2004 The rules state in production that there is no length limit to the magazines, only that they can have ten rnds. I can purchase 140 mm STI Para mags that work in my gun and don't fall to pieces like the stock mags when they hit the ground. I have had no luck in finding good 10 rnd. mags for my Para 16 40 LDA. Could I use the 140's and load them to 10 rnds. and use them in Production class. This would also let me shoot L10 if I wanted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kimel Posted January 26, 2004 Share Posted January 26, 2004 Yes, I believe you can. Just don't have more than 10 rounds in them, even on your belt, ever, if you are claiming Production or L-10. Lots of pistols used in production have hi-cap mags so folks just have to partially load them and this is a very common practice in L-10. With the new rule book this will change slightly. You "could" have 1 mag with 11 in it you use to LAMR thus leaving you with only 10 in the mag at the start signal per the new rules and avoiding the whole "Barney Mag" dance. I know myself too well and I will stay with the Barney Mag when I shoot L-10...given a chance of screwing it up, I will. I believe someone (Dawson maybe?) is now making sturdier bases for the para 10 rounders. I have only had one of my Para 10 rounders come apart on me when it hit the ground and that was after I stepped on it. It survived somehow and still works fine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
diehli Posted January 26, 2004 Share Posted January 26, 2004 Rules say no weighted attachments and that the gun must fit in the box. I'm pretty sure that the extra length would be considered a weighted attachment and that the gun wouldn't fit in the box. Email Amidon for an interpretation of the rules that is probably pretty accurate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kimel Posted January 26, 2004 Share Posted January 26, 2004 Oh yeah...the box. Forgot about that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scooterj Posted January 26, 2004 Share Posted January 26, 2004 STI for Para mags are not the same dimensions as factory Para mags, which make them not legal for Production. L-10 should be fine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Detlef Posted January 26, 2004 Share Posted January 26, 2004 scooterj, this *same dimension* rule is not in effect for USPSA Prod Div, only for IPSC Prod Div. I believe that S_I mags for Para are fine in USPSA Prod Div except for the box problem (dunno whether they'd fit). And don't the USPSA rule revisions get rid of the ugly box by (say) April anyway? SIGL, can you enlighten us on the more sturdy base pad assembly for Para 10 rds-ers? I have about 4 useless mag body tops lying around that I wouldn't mind putting back in service (but not with frangible/fragile factory original parts...). Who makes them, where can we get them? --Detlef Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kimel Posted January 27, 2004 Share Posted January 27, 2004 I'll have to go take a look and see if I can find them again. It was one of those "wow...those are cool. No need to bookmark though. I will remember where I saw them" type events. I need several myself. I like my 10 rounders for steel and for L10. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Larry Cazes Posted January 27, 2004 Share Posted January 27, 2004 I have 2 10 rounders that came with Dawson's heavy Aluminum bases when I bought my P14 from Dawson. They are pretty nice. Too bad the 10 rounders are so hard to seat when full that I only use them to start off a stage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kimel Posted January 27, 2004 Share Posted January 27, 2004 Okay...found 'em. High Strength Floor Plate Retainer for Para 10 Round mags. "Hi Strength design allow you to drop mag without worry." Dawson Precision. Part #s 029-001 (P14/16), #029-002 (P13), #029-003 (P12) or their extended retainer #029-004. Page 26 on their Catalog #43. They are $19.95 for 001 - 003 and $21.95 for 004. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kimel Posted January 27, 2004 Share Posted January 27, 2004 Wow Larry. My 10 rounders (with the Dawson aluminium bases) are the easiest seating mags I own. You sure the pads are banging into your magwell (if you have one)? I have had to knock a few thousands off all of my Dawson aluminium bases to get them to seat right with my ICE magwell. Now they drop right in, no fuss, no muss. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Larry Cazes Posted January 27, 2004 Share Posted January 27, 2004 Yup....Its not due to interference with the well. Just very tight when full. If i start off with 9, they are just like my other para mags with Dawson +2 pads. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LPatterson Posted January 27, 2004 Share Posted January 27, 2004 It is hard to tell what USPSA is going to do after reading the on-line list of rules modifications but Appendix D4 (production Division) of the IPSC rules lists the following under special conditions: 19.2 "Baes plates and/or any other devices which provide additional ammunition capacity (e.g. "+2" magazine extensions), are prohibited. 20.1 Aftermarket magazines which match the external dimensions of standard magazines offered by the OFM for the approved handgun are permitted. So IMHO if it doesn't look like a factory part then it is not usable. USPSA has a list of approved handguns that differs from IPSC. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BismarckC Posted January 27, 2004 Share Posted January 27, 2004 FWIW I think the issue is going to be the length of the magazine. I had a Sig 220 lying around and wanted to use it for production. I e-mailed Amidon and he said since the 10 round mags for the 220 extend down that could be considered an unfair advantage to regular mags that sit flush. If the 140mm extend past the bottom of the gripe ther would be a problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yeahyeah Posted January 28, 2004 Author Share Posted January 28, 2004 Checked to see if my Para will fit in the "BOX" with the 140mm mags, and it will. The mags don't have "weighted attachments" the mags are one piece just a small plastic base plate, and it is less then 2oz. over stock weight. Sounds like it should fly! I'm not trying to bend the rules, just save money buy useing mags that I already have, and don't break easy when droped. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DBChaffin Posted January 29, 2004 Share Posted January 29, 2004 I think it would be wise to email Amidon at vpuspsa@aol.com for an official ruling before you find out that it doesn't fly at a big match and get kicked out of production. BismarckC had a Sig 220 which comes with 7 round mags. There is an aftermarket 10 round magazine available. It is a one-piece tube just like in your case. It is of course longer than the factory mag (just like in your case as well) but is otherwise identical (unlike your mags which are quite different at the top). The official ruling from Amidon was that the 10 round Sig 220 mags were illegal, because the extra length is an advantage for seating/handling purposes. I'm not saying I agree with any of it, but I see no difference for your situation here. In my view, under that ruling, the only options are either factory Para 10 rounders or high caps with factory basepads loaded to 10 rounds, or suitable aftermarket replacements that are of the same dimensions. BismarckC wasn't trying to bend the rules, and unlike you there are NO other options for a Sig 220. It is a singlestack with a double action first shot. Unless you want to compete being 3 rounds down in production (7+1 instead of 10+1 in others) or shoot it against 1911's in L10, you're outta luck. I don't claim to know the answer, but I think it would be wise to check before you make the assumption. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yeahyeah Posted January 31, 2004 Author Share Posted January 31, 2004 Hi DBChaffin, that's very coinsidental the fact that the only other gun that I have to shoot is a Sig P220 with the long ten rnd. mags. I don't see the problem the rules clearly state "no magazine length restrictions" just capacity, but i'll take your advice and email Amedon an see what he has to say. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BismarckC Posted February 1, 2004 Share Posted February 1, 2004 yeahyeah: Here is the e-mail I received from Amidon: Hi, Sorry for the delay in responding. After-market magazines would be allowable providing, that they meet the dimensions of the original mags. If the magazine was to extend beyond the mag well further than the original mags, it could fall under external modifications and or possible weighted attachments, depending on the mag. The point is, that an advantage could be gained when doing reloads by having the mag extend further out. DVC, John I hope this helps BismarckC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Detlef Posted February 2, 2004 Share Posted February 2, 2004 Duh...! Well, that clears it up. Still, I guess while this is explicitly stated in IPSC rules, it's implicit in USPSA rules (*external modification*). --Detlef Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yeahyeah Posted February 3, 2004 Author Share Posted February 3, 2004 This is the email that John sent me when I asked him: The current rules (red book, 14th edition), only states thatweighted attachments to the mags not allowed. The new rules, (2004), are still being worked on by the BOD, so I am not in a position to give you an official answer as to what will be in the future regarding mags. These rules should be resolved soon, at that time, I will be able to give you the answer you seek. DVC, John Amidon So it sounds like it's ok to me! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BismarckC Posted February 3, 2004 Share Posted February 3, 2004 yeahyeah: Your reply from John is interesting. I received my reply on 12/21/03. What a difference a month makes. It is a moot point for me since I sold my Sig. I went ahead and sold it since I saw no use for it in USPSA/IPSC. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Detlef Posted February 3, 2004 Share Posted February 3, 2004 interesting beyond what I can find words for. So...I guess it's o.k. to use long mags, just be prepared to go to arbitration...and bring this thread :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted February 5, 2004 Share Posted February 5, 2004 (I posted this in another thread...thought I'd add it here as well.) I don't think mag length is a problem (in USPSA Production). As long as the FACTORY makes a mag that fits that gun. (True, any after-market mags would have to match those FACTORY mag specifications.) One of our members sent an email to John Amidon for his opinion...I think the gun was a SIG...wanting to use the factory 10 round mags (which stuck out of the base of the gun some). DBChaffin and I talked about the response that came back. My take is that Amidon might not have understand the situation completely (he must get tons of rules questions every week). Looking at the rulebook...for USPSA Production... Magazine length restrictions......NO k) No weighted attachments allowed to magazines. (key word here for me is attachments) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tupperware Posted March 8, 2004 Share Posted March 8, 2004 If the STI para tubes are production legal they would be the hot setup for reloads due to the much narrower nose profile. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry White Posted March 8, 2004 Share Posted March 8, 2004 The STI for para mags are longer than a stock p16 hi cap by almost 3/4 in so they are out for production. If you had some p16 hi caps they wont break nearly as bad as the 10 rds and fit the gun the same and should be legal as long as you dont load more than 10. Larry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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