alphamike Posted January 23, 2004 Share Posted January 23, 2004 I noticed that the USPSA board rejected an amendment to retain the 8 rounds from one position rule currently contained in US 1.2.1 Now that we're adopting IPSC's "9 rounds per view" rule, I've got some questions. I've only been shooting IPSC/USPSA for a couple of years so I am ignorant of the history here. Why was there a difference in the last rule book between IPSC (9 rounds per view) and USPSA (8 rounds)? How does going to 9 rounds per view improve stage design? I don't mean this in a snotty way, I'm open to learning from them that's been there. It seems rather small to me to allow people that bought 8 round revolvers to compete in production and then pull the rug out from under them by mandating static reloads. In the interest of full discosure I shoot L-10 exclusively and the 9 rounds per view rule now means that I have 1 make up shot before slide lock. I understand that *any* round limitation crabs the freestyle aspect of the sport, but in that case why give a nod toward a stock gun division at all? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted January 23, 2004 Share Posted January 23, 2004 Wow...I thought you might have been mistaken (maybe the voted twice...with slightly different wording). But, I don't see where they did. If so...the is a big giant WTF!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alphamike Posted January 23, 2004 Author Share Posted January 23, 2004 Gee, I'd like to be wrong... Title: Round Counts Date of Motion: 1/06/04 Closed: 1/07/04 Submitted by: Area1 Seconded by: Area5 Status: Posted Result: Failed Motion: Area-1 moves to revise the language of 1.2.1.1, 1.2.1.2, and 1.2.1.3 as follows: Revise each instance to reflect that no more than 8 (eight) scoring hits may be required from any single location or view. Area1 Yes Area2 No Area3 No, Rollcall Requested Area4 No Area5 Yes Area6 No Area7 Yes, Rollcall Requested Area8 Yes President No Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted January 23, 2004 Share Posted January 23, 2004 Yeah...that is what I read too. But, there were some problems with getting things posted just right...and, sometimes they voted down one version of a rule so that they could vote in another (better worded version). I hope that is the case here...but I fear you are right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ErikW Posted January 23, 2004 Share Posted January 23, 2004 It doesn't matter what the rulebook says; only the nationals and some tournaments will follow the course design rules to the letter. In general, they will be ignored or unknown at less-scrutinized matches, for better or worse. The good course designers will continue to make 8 round neutral stages and the bad course designers will continue to make empty-the-170-from-one-position stages. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spook Posted January 23, 2004 Share Posted January 23, 2004 Aw, jeez, I for once was hoping IPSC would follow USPSA on this one. This will probably mean the end of eight shot revolvers in USPSA open, limited and most of all: production I seriously do not understand what reasons there could be to decrease the playingfield to gain only one round per position. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duane Thomas Posted January 23, 2004 Share Posted January 23, 2004 In the interest of full discosure I shoot L-10 exclusively and the 9 rounds per view rule now means that I have 1 make up shot before slide lock. Assuming you start with 11 rounds in the gun (10 in the mag, one in the chamber) that's actually two extra rounds before slidelock. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
uscbigdawg Posted January 23, 2004 Share Posted January 23, 2004 To follow what Duane said...doesn't everyone else in L10 (for the other divisions too for that matter) have the same restrictions as you? What's the problem then? Rich Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted January 23, 2004 Share Posted January 23, 2004 How do we benefit from this??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wide45 Posted January 23, 2004 Share Posted January 23, 2004 It has always been possible to design good stages. It still is. Niether USPSA nor IPSC requires 9 round arrays. If that is what you get, its not thier fault. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alphamike Posted January 24, 2004 Author Share Posted January 24, 2004 In the interest of full discosure I shoot L-10 exclusively and the 9 rounds per view rule now means that I have 1 make up shot before slide lock. Assuming you start with 11 rounds in the gun (10 in the mag, one in the chamber) that's actually two extra rounds before slidelock. What I meant to say is that I have one make up shot available. That second one would take me to slide lock so I'm trying to leave it in the gun. The "9th" round represents a piece of steel, which has a disconcerting tendency not to fall down when I "know" I got a solid hit, and now I'm operating 50% closer to the edge of doing the slow reload. To follow what Duane said...doesn't everyone else in L10 (for the other divisions too for that matter) have the same restrictions as you? What's the problem then? The primary way that I see this affecting 10 round shooters is at Level 1 matches where the overall order of finish is the main thing people seem to be interested in. As another post pointed out, Level 1 course designers don't pay much attention to the course design rules anyway so maybe this isn't the greatest example. In general, though,the rule change will have a tendency to slow down 10 round shooters and, in my opinion, make the courses less fun to run. The effect is rather nastier for 8 round revolvers in production (not to mention revolver division). What I was hoping is that someone could point out why IPSC has the 9 round rule ; why USPSA had 8; and why changing that is an improvement to course design. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wide45 Posted January 24, 2004 Share Posted January 24, 2004 There was more difference than that. IPSC was no more than 9 rounds allowed from one place. USPSA was no more than 8 rounds required from one place. USPSA allowed more options, but also gave more rope for bad stages. IPSC has changed to no more than 9 rounds required, with some words to try to prevent some of the bad stages. USPSA looks to be going with the IPSC rule. I think it amounts to a reasonable compromise for both. It all comes down to stage design. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ErikW Posted January 24, 2004 Share Posted January 24, 2004 Why ask why? Just guessing, but IPSC figured an 8 round single stacker gets to empty the magazine and chamber, and all is fair, but they didn't account for the course having another shooting position thereafter. As the man said, it all comes down to stage design. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted January 24, 2004 Share Posted January 24, 2004 Why ask why? !!! Because we aren't mindless drones. I'm not against change...for progress. Maybe there is some benefit? Somebody will have to point it out for me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wide45 Posted January 24, 2004 Share Posted January 24, 2004 I think the BOD guessed that most L10 and PROD competitors were using 10 round mags. I hope they saw that the rule requires NO changes in the stages we run now. I know they did not want to change the IPSC rules without a real need. That is the bottom line. Did we need to change the IPSC rule? The BOD said no, and for what its worth, I agree. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TriggerT Posted January 24, 2004 Share Posted January 24, 2004 I just received my NROI review exam in the mail 5 minutes ago, and the FIRST question is "In the US, can a course of fire allow more than 8 shots to be fired from a single position?" Now if I didn't get on this web site just about every day, I know how I would have answered that, but now what do I say, and what rule do I cite? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wide45 Posted January 25, 2004 Share Posted January 25, 2004 The only rulebook available for you to use, is your trusty, red, 14th edition. The answer is there, clear as day. Don't expect me to do your homework for you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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