pushing the gun down during rapid fire

[rvb]

proves that everyone is a flincher. ... Basically, it involves me pushing on someones outstretched palm. I tell them Im going to gently bump their hand…and I do that a few times until they get used to it. Then, while still talking, I miss their hand, and they about fall on their face. The next time, I tell them which time Im going to miss and they still flinch a little. Thats what were dealing with when we shoot. Your body knows its going to get a push, and it wants to stay in balance, so its going to push back…you just have to make that happen after ignition and things will be great!

I know this is just more or less "semantics" and "words," but I don't consider what's described above as a "flinch."

I often say a flinch is what happens before the shot breaks. Propper timing is what happens after. Flinching is a result of fear; timing is a result of control.

Merriam-Webster: flinch : to withdraw or shrink from or as if from pain.

I don't think this definition really describes what's happening post-ignition...

As for the part I put in italics, I think if you loaded a mag and said the 5th round is a dummy and made me shoot .15 splits, yea, I might still push the gun down on it... but again out of anticipation/expectation of timing it [post-click], not that I'd have thrown the shot with a flinch.

That said, I agree everyone flinches from time to time. It's kind of a human nature thing that we work to suppress. You can shoot with the idea of not knowing exactly when a shot will break, but ultimately you know that it will.

-rvb

Edited June 17, 2010 by rvb

[benos]

In a match, I learned that if I told myslef to grip the gun with 80% of the strength that I gripped with in practice, the sights would track smooth ad predictably just like they did in practice.

be

[G-ManBart]

proves that everyone is a “flincher”. ... Basically, it involves me pushing on someone’s outstretched palm. I tell them I’m going to gently bump their hand…and I do that a few times until they get used to it. Then, while still talking, I miss their hand, and they about fall on their face. The next time, I tell them which time I’m going to miss and they still flinch a little. That’s what we’re dealing with when we shoot. Your body knows it’s going to get a push, and it wants to stay in balance, so it’s going to push back…you just have to make that happen after ignition and things will be great!

I know this is just more or less "semantics" and "words," but I don't consider what's described above as a "flinch."

I often say a flinch is what happens before the shot breaks. Propper timing is what happens after. Flinching is a result of fear; timing is a result of control.

Merriam-Webster: flinch : to withdraw or shrink from or as if from pain.

I don't think this definition really describes what's happening post-ignition...

As for the part I put in italics, I think if you loaded a mag and said the 5th round is a dummy and made me shoot .15 splits, yea, I might still push the gun down on it... but again out of anticipation/expectation of timing it [post-click], not that I'd have thrown the shot with a flinch.

That said, I agree everyone flinches from time to time. It's kind of a human nature thing that we work to suppress. You can shoot with the idea of not knowing exactly when a shot will break, but ultimately you know that it will.

-rvb

Absolutely. That's why I used quotes on "flinchers"....because it's not really a flinch when it happens post-ignition. R,

[pries81]

This is a good thread. I sometimes see new shooters close their eyes too. When I tell them to freeze during practice and ask them what they shot on the last target, they honestly can't say. That when I point out why. I think most of the time shots on the target will also tell flinch vs. recoil management/anticipation/timing etc...

[kcbrown]

There are a number of drills to use to help folks with this, but it's way easier to fix when they've seen it happen through their own perspective, just in slow motion. Essentially, they (you) need to learn to track the front sight/call the shot. If someone is tracking the front sight, they'll KNOW it when they have a pre-ignition push because they'll see where the front sight was when the gun went off, and it wasn't on the intended target. It's a lot easier to fix something you've seen happen! R,

You can track the front sight prior to the first shot.

But how in the world can you track the front sight during followup rapid fire shots? I can't. The sight's moving too fast during recoil. The only way I can begin to track the sight is to let it stabilize, at which point I have to realign the sights before firing again. And at that point, it's no longer "rapid" fire (it's about 3 shots every 2 seconds at that point).

Help!

Edited July 16, 2010 by kcbrown

[G-ManBart]

The answer is probably "practice a lot", but obviously it's not quite that simple. The first thing is to learn how to watch the front sight rise up or lift off the target. You'll lose it, but at least you know where it was when the shot went off. This is sort of a choppy version of sight tracking...in music terms, a staccato sort of thing. You see it lift, lose it, pick it up as it's coming down, see it rise, lose it...etc. Learning to track the front sight well is easier with something mild, and a .22 isn't a bad place to start. Something you can do to help is simply shoot into the backstop so there's no actual target to worry about...just watch what the front sight does. Once you get that down you can try to transfer it to paper/steel. R,

[kcbrown]

That's the problem. I don't pick it up as it's coming down. It's coming down too fast. By the time I even realize the sight is there at all, it's already down (at that point it's usually some random amount below the rear sights and I have to realign them in order for the next shot to be on target).

I suppose practice might help, but I've noticed no improvement in my ability to track the front sight after a number of practice sessions.

[All-Gator]

Damn...can't resist adding my two cents. I shot Bullseye with some degree of competency (2600 shooter.) I would look at his complaint a little differently. If a shooter is consistently pushing the pistol in anticipation of the recoil,(s)he will hit high and right. What we called "heeling" the gun. If (s)he is hitting consistently low...and usually left..., it was because of jerking the trigger, ie, seeing the "perfect" sight picture/alignment and saying/thinking "make it go off NOW!" So, my analysis of the basic problem would be different.

Several other comments:

(1) It was taught that "the tighter the grip, the tighter the group."

(2) Ball and dummy exercise was the method used to gain better trigger control

(3) Learning to accept some degree of a "wobble zone" also was needed to gain better trigger control

(4) There are probably other comments but at my age I can't remember all the material in a long thread.

A-G

Oh yeah, "flinching." It was found that the most signicant variable in flinching was the noise rather than the actual mechanical recoil. So, better ear muffs often helped in that area.

[tisch006]

WOW!

What a great thread!

I've got to get to the range as fast as i can so I can practice some of the exercises described. I think the biggest epiphany is the idea that I try to fire a shot by jamming the trigger as soon as the sight passes the bullseye instead of being smooth.

Perhaps what I thought was "anticipation" is really a need for better trigger control?

[G-ManBart]

Sometimes grip issues can make sight tracking more difficult. If the gun flips higher, it's harder to track the front sight. I demonstrated that for a fellow instructor at work just last week (used my M&P Pro). He's just getting started in USPSA and was wondering how people were shooting so fast and getting good hits. I showed him how a relaxed grip caused the muzzle to flip way up towards the top of the target. I then used a very firm grip (without causing tension in the right hand to get to where it interferes with a smooth trigger press) and the front sight didn't leave the A zone (we were at 7yds). Then I showed him a 2.0s bill drill (all Alphas)...smooth, no rush. If the sight only moves an inch or so, it's not too hard to track. The more it moves, the harder it gets to follow. Just something to experiment with. R,

[Field]

Then I showed him a 2.0s bill drill (all Alphas)...smooth, no rush.

[G-ManBart]

Then I showed him a 2.0s bill drill (all Alphas)...smooth, no rush.

I'm definitely not Keith Stone, and 2.0 isn't even close to bragging rights It's not bad, but certainly not special! R,

[js82]

Sorry to bring back an old thread, but how do you make sure that the post-ignition push is consistent? When I shoot more quickly I feel myself pushing the gun down to make it go back on target faster, but sometimes it ends up being a pre-ignition push. So some of my shots make it in and a few of my shots are low. My splits aren't even decent - about .9s.

[G-ManBart]

Bringing back old threads is often a good thing!

At .9 or 1.0, there really shouldn't be any need tp force the gun back on target. If there is, it would seem there's a grip issue going on that prevents the gun from resetting properly. Shooting more than two shots often shows flaws in technique. If I feel I'm sort of out of time with the gun, I'll shoot bill drills (six shots) until I feel like I'm visually driving the bullets into the A zone.

It's easy to blast two fast shots towards a target, then stop or switch to another target. The same isn't true of 3+ shots...you'll see how wild you're getting, and stop, if things aren't working properly. R,

[js82]

Hey G-Man. I read through a lot of threads and found the things you've said very interesting and informative. Before, I thought flinching was just flinching.

Anyway , I don't know my real split times because I don't have a timer. I know our time perception can easily be wrong but it feels like less than a second to me. I'll take a video so that I can see my actual split times. About the grip issue, I'm finding that my entire arm moves up during recoil. When I watch videos of professionals their arms don't seem to move up at all. The gun just seems to recoil straight back. I've tried bending my elbows a little more but it doesn't seem to make a difference. And another thing is that their guns don't seem to wobble up and down afterwards whereas when I shoot I see the front post go up and down a few times before stabilizing. What does it sound like I'm doing wrong?

[G-ManBart]

That could be a number of things. Rather than guess, some video would really help...let folks take a look at it, and make suggestions. That's probably the fastest way to know for sure. R,

[Bongo Boy]

I am a new shooter and am getting ready to shoot my first match. I'm using my husbands account. I have the same problem of a pre-ignition push down flintch but my problem occurs during slow fire speed. At fast(er) speed the flintch significantly lessens but is still present. I am wondering if there are any tips or drills other than using the dummy rounds.

Dry fire practice, for the problem and conditions you're describing. Each time I invest time in dry fire practice, I get significant and very noticeable improvement in my precision shooting at the range. By 'precision' I mean relative slow fire with the intention of placing tight groups.

What I believe you're describing is addressed best through LOTS of dry fire practice, then an intent on your way to the range to repeat what you practiced in dry fire. When you are actually AT the range, just DO what you did during dry fire--assuming you were successful in dry fire. You can (and will) blink, and pull and everything else during dryfire, too. Dry fire simply allows you to address the problem by making it easy to see. You still have to learn to keep your eyes open, press the trigger and follow through. When you can do that well and consistently, the challenge is then to do it at the range during live fire. You will succeed in that, with practice, and you will see your group sizes cut in half, or more, the first time you succeed.

As mentioned in this thread above, during relatively rapid fire sequences, if you break a shot on an empty chamber, a dummy round or a round that fails to light up, you'll likely see a noticeable muzzle dip. At least for me, this happens even though I'm drilling tight groups into the target and hitting exactly where I want to. It's not a flinch--different situation.