.45-70 Brass Quality ?

[Eric Scher]

PLEASE NOTE: This is potentially the kind of question that get's me laughed at, yelled at, called a dumbass or worse. On the other hand, what's the point of having access to all the knowledge of a reloading forum if you can't use it as a reality check from time to time.

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I think the main thrust of my question could be summed up like so:

If I'm reloading for a Year 2000 Marlin 1895G and I start loading "heavy", which one will fail on me first? The brass or the gun?

Please understand, I don't want to necessarily search the outer limits of .45-70 velocity. My research, for what it's worth, tends to indicate that big, hard, heavy bullets at mid-teen velocities are what works well in .45-70.

So basically, I am interested in perhaps seeing what slower powders and heavier bullets seem to be capable of. Understand, I don't have a particular goal here, it's just something I'm curious about and since I have the equipment to experiment, I figure why not?

My concern though is that since .45-70 was originally intended for B.P. use, the brass may not be as strong as rounds intended for magnum loads from the very beginning. Naturally, I don't think I even have to consider reloading the old balloon-head brass. I was thinking in terms of modern brass, and the first one that comes to mind is Starline, because of their rep for value & quality.

But of course, I don't know how strong that brass is.

I was looking at a list of "what -ifs" and it occurred to me that I could probably re-size the .500 Alaskan, since the rim diameter is so close and the thickness just the same. But then I remember that THAT round is a re-sized .348WCF, and I have no idea what kind of strength THAT case has.

So, I figured I'd ask...

Is modern, factory made brass from Starline or any other company strong enough that there are no PRACTICAL concerns, since I would have hit max load before I need to start worrying about brass?

Or is it fairly weak?

If I can toss out a piggyback question to this, what about my thoughts of going with slower and slower powders?

I did a casual search and found loads for the .45-70 as slow as H335 or 4064. But what about even slower? Seriously, take it to an extreme, like... Could there be a Retumbo load for .45-70?

[GrumpyOne]

Eric, I have no idea about powders for the 45-70, but from what I know, there isn't anything wrong with modern age Winchester, Remington, or Starline brass. I'm sure any of the modern brass is going to be ok. Originally, it was intended for BP, but that hasn't been shot in years (IIRC) and the new brass is probably gonna have a lot more quality control than what it did 100 years ago. I would find out what kind of pressures and velocities the commercial reloaders are getting out of their brass, and go from there. Glad to see you back on the forums!

PS, I don't think the gun will fail, ever. Only way that will potentially happen is a double charge of powder or a plugged barrel.

I'm pretty sure that somewhere, there is a manufacturer of 45-110 or 120 brass, it would most definitely hold up, you'd just have to trim it down.

Midway has 45-110 and 45-120 brass. The 45-120 brass is Norma, so it's probably some of the best there is.

http://www.midwayusa.com/viewproduct/?productnumber=1311162501

Edited June 7, 2010 by GrumpyOne

[wyoshooter]

i like winchester brass with my hunting load, 60 gr. varget with a 350gr. Hornaday(sp?) I get two sometimes 3 reloads. I might be able to get more, but why push it. the slower powders not sure if they would work. You may not have enough barrel lenght.

[Eric Scher]

Thanks guys, good info.

You know, one of the things I have been trying to put together is a sort of Rosetta Stone for reloading. A key... A formula...

Basically, I want to be able to take ANY cartridge, and taking into account case volume, bullet diameter & weight, barrel length and whatever other variables I need, and make some educated guesses about what relative burn rate I would need in order to attain the velocities I'm looking for.

Like here...

I know that I want to be able to load a heavy bullet, certainly a 405grainer if not 500+.

I know I want around 1500-1750fps

But I haven't figured out what the common denominator is.

Just to pull an example out of <cough> back pocket:

Start with .35 Caliber straight-wall cartridge, 2" case length, 50gr capacity. Then change THIS or THAT and your powder speed needs to go up or down and by how much?

I'm dreaming, right?

[GrumpyOne]

Eric, as they said in the Warren Commission report, "There is no magic bullet!" I think that, with different lots of the same powder, the velocities can vary so much, that it would be near impossible to accurately say "Ok, I dropped the bullet weight by 20 grains, I need to add X number of grains to the charge (or change to a slower/faster powder), to maintain the same velocity." While the theory may hold true for one lot of powder, if you load from another lot, it may not. If that were the case, there wouldn't be so many Chrono's out there. Although, I too have thought that way, but gave up on it quickly. Some powders just reach a certain pressure, and all you are doing after that is wasting the powder, as it isn't burning, pushing the bullet.

[Eric Scher]

Well, knowing when to drop a line of thought is good too.

[GrumpyOne]

I didn't say drop it....I just said I couldn't find the answer!

[Bryan 45]

When I want to get punished by my Ruger No. 1, I load the Remington 405g SP into Remington cases with IMR 4198. My rifle has a 22" barrel so my velocity is going to be greater than your Guide Gun, but at 2000 fps I have no signs of high pressure. I don't know how many loads I'll get out of the cases because it frankly is not comfortable to shoot in a 7# rifle. But, I expect I'll get at least 4.

I understand your quest for a magic formula, but as many loading manuals as there are now, with excellent laboratory developed data, I see no need to re-invent the wheel. I have a Lyman, Sierra, Hornday, and a Hodgdon manual- if it ain't in there, I don't need it!

[Eric Scher]

Magic formula?

Heck, I'd settle for a rule of thumb.

I would settle for just having a rule of thumb that indicates to me whether I should look to a faster or slower powder when a given variable changes.

[buckhorn_cortez]

I've had a Marlin 1895 since 1983 and have reloaded thousands of rounds for it. I think if you look at the ballistics, you will find that the 360 grain round nose (I use Hornady) will give you the best balance of velocity, trajectory, and energy. I use either Winchester or Remington brass - doesn't seem to matter. I use Remington 9-1/2 primers (they seem the most consistent) and 51 grains of 4198. That load totally fills the case and you will hear a little "crunching" of the powder as the bullet is seated - it is a max load. Chronograph of the load shows just at 2100 feet-per-second.

One of the problems with a larger bullet (405 grain) is they sit deeper in the brass and you have to reduce the powder making less velocity.

I've read people who claim they've reloaded 45-70 brass "a hundred times." Wow - I couldn't get that out of .45 ACP because at some point, the primer pocket is so worn it won't hold the primers. Same thing happens to rifle brass. My 6mm is good for about 15 reloads and then the primer pocket is too big. On 45-70, I've gotten 5-7 reloads - max loads are hard on the brass. Loaded to black powder levels may gain you more reloads - but, at some point the primer pocket issue comes into play.

Here's what happens with the 45-70. The case stretches from the web at the bottom of the cartridge and the case gets longer. You need to check the brass for length every time you reload them and trim as required. I could never load them on a progressive press (I've had both a Dillon and a Hornady) because there is not enough "feel" when seating the bullet and you end up wrinkling the case side wall as you seat the bullet. A single stage press and very gentle bullet seating is the way I do it.

You'll know when the brass is done when either of two things happens. First, you will get a light circle at the base of the case about 1/8-inch up from the rim. This is the area where the case is being stretched and when you see the light circle - that's it, throw the brass away as the case will probably separate at that point if you try one more load. The second thing that can happen is that the top of the cartridge work hardens from being stretched, trimmed and resized. Some brass will split slightly at the top lip when they get too old - obviously, you throw them away.

Hope that helps...

[Modoc]

Eric,

In response to your first part about the weakness of the 45-70 case. If you look at cases that got the name for failing the most, they were the old black powder balloon head cases where the tube was folded to make the rim. Our new manufactured/drawn cases are much stronger. As for brass thickness, my experience has been that Starline is the thickest with Remington and Winchester getting thinner. My standpoint is a bit different in that I am forming 40-65 cases for Black Powder Cartridge Silhouette shooting and I want the case to swell and seal the barrel at a lower pressure, so I prefer the Winchester brass for ease of work.

My father had a Siamese Mauser in 45-70 that he loaded some real potent loads using IMR 3031 and Gr hard cast bullets that would really thump on both ends and we did not see any abnormal brass life like only getting one or two reloads.

A good reference is the Lyman reloading manual because it has several sections on loading the 45-70 based on what you will be shooting the cartridge in, ie Trapdoor Springfield, Ruger #1/New Marlin etc.

You might also want to look at

www.theopenrange.net in their reloading and Billy Dixon Long range society pages

and

www.castboolits.com - the members there have a huge wealth of knowledge about hand loading all kinds of cartridges with lead bullets

I have also had good success with calling the Powder Manufacturer's help line for data on oddball cartridges, because I have a tendency to shoot obsoletes.

[Eric Scher]

I have done some more research into this and I eventually came to the conclusion that the simplest thing to do when reloading .45-70 for the modern Marlin 1895, is to simply use the load data for the Marlin .450

In retrospect, the reason is obvious. Marlin saw a market for .45-70 fans who wanted to take advantage of the real strength of the 336 action that they used in their 1895s. But they also knew that simply convincing a mainstream ammo company to come out with more powerful loads for the .45-70 was problematic, because there were a LOT of .45-70 rifles out there that weren't anywhere near as strong as the 1895.

So they came up with the idea of a "belted magnum" version of the .45-70 that wouldn't fit in a weapon that headspaces on the rim like the .45-70. But other than the belt, and of course the specific chamber for that ammo, the Marlin .450 actually IS a .45-70.

I'd still like to find a rule of thumb for the variables though....

Case volume up = powder speed up/down

Bullet weight up = powder speed up/down

That sort of thing.

[GrumpyOne]

Eric, I was wondering how you were coming on your loading....

Got all of those presses set up aand ready to go?

[Eric Scher]

No...

While getting the house and that room in particular straightened out, my Mother had her Bone Cancer come back, then had both shingles and Guillain–Barré syndrome piled on top of that.

Lets just say that it was disruptive.

So I am now back where I was the last time we spoke; with a good bit of work to be done so I can get my room set up the way I want it to be.

[GrumpyOne]

No...

While getting the house and that room in particular straightened out, my Mother had her Bone Cancer come back, then had both shingles and Guillain–Barré syndrome piled on top of that.

Lets just say that it was disruptive.

So I am now back where I was the last time we spoke; with a good bit of work to be done so I can get my room set up the way I want it to be.

Sorry to hear about your mom, hope she's doing better.....

Get your room set up right, you'll be spending alot of time in there!

[Eric Scher]

Sorry to hear about your mom, hope she's doing better.....

Get your room set up right, you'll be spending a lot of time in there!

Thanks Grump. And she is... Cancer is in remission again, shingles are gone and the treatments for the nerve disease worked... she's walking with a cane now. She's supposed to be going back home soon.

[usmc1974]

neither one will fail, if you take care of the brass and the rifle. I use Starline Brass 58.8 grains 777FFG and a 405 LFP bullet.

[Jim Watson]

I know that I want to be able to load a heavy bullet, certainly a 405grainer if not 500+. I know I want around 1500-1750fps.

I may not understand your problem, but this is well within handbook data for the Marlin.

Elmer Keith and Ken Waters thought a 405 gr JSP and 53 gr 3031 were plenty. 1700-1800 fps depending on the barrel length and other details.

Speer says H335 or AA2015 will beat that. .45-70 is not a slow powder cartridge. There have been trials of a case full of 4831 as sort of a black powder substitute giving low velocity, lots of fouling, but good accuracy. No place here for Retumbo.

when reloading .45-70 for the modern Marlin 1895, is to simply use the load data for the Marlin .450

It is generally unwise to adapt load data; but it this case it is totally unnecessary. Hodgdon shows Lever Action .45-70 loads to the same pressure and velocity range as the .450 Marlin, but uses MORE powder doing it. Probably due to lower volume in the thick belted brass.

Oh, yeah, the Original Subject, brass quality. Ken Waters reported 20 cycles with Winchester brass as available in 1974. I doubt that was at 1800 fps, though.

Edited July 11, 2010 by Jim Watson

[David Sinko]

I have used most of the brass that's out there except Starline. Possibly the best out there is Buffalo Bore, which uses small rifle primers and I think is headstamped .45-70 Magnum. Sometimes I load this for a friend of mine. I can not say that any one brand is noticeably worse than another. Modern brass is all good stuff. I have heard that the rim dimensions of R-P brass are slightly different and if your carrier is worn the R-P brass will cause stoppages before any other brand. I use mostly R-P and have not had any problems.

I have found that the best powder for velocity is IMR 4198. I have loaded bullets up to and including 540 grs. for my 1895GS. If I had to pick just one powder, it would be IMR 4198. I also use XMP5744 for reduced loads with 405 gr. bullets and Winchester 231 with various handgun bullets from a single round ball to .45 Colt handgun bullets. My rifle shoots everything very well, even bullets as undersized as .452".

I have found that the biggest problem with Marlin .45-70 rifles is varying chamber dimensions. I have loaded for five Marlins and some of them have short chambers. Some of the wider LBT bullets can't be chambered in some of the rifles yet function fine in others. I suggest you trim your brass every single time you load it and if the round won't chamber be aware that you could have a small or tight chamber. The best bullet I have found that chambers in all rifles is the 460 gr. WFN, which I believe is from Cast Performance.

Dave Sinko

[PGM34]

I use winchester brass to push a 525gr bullet at 1730fps with 52.5gr of H-4895.

[fatford]

i recently purchased a marlin 1894ss and plan on playing around with a 300gr lfn with trailboss powder. not really looking for that kick butt load but something these tired old bones could enjoy shooting.maybe later i`ll try a jacketed bullet. good luck finding that right load. faster dosen`t always mean most accurate!

Edited December 23, 2010 by fatford